HIGHLA-L Digest - 2 Sep 2004 to 3 Sep 2004 - Special issue (#2004-168)
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There are 10 messages totalling 878 lines in this issue.
Topics in this special issue:
1. Season Five dvd Commentary: The End of Innocence
2. Season Five dvd Commentary: Prop hecy
3. Highlander Toon Movie In Development (Film In 2006) (4)
4. Season Five dvd Commentary: Prophecy
5. Season Five dvd Commentary: Prophecy
6. Season Five dvd Commentary: Prophecy
7. =?us-ascii?Q?Re:_Season_Five_dvd_Commentary:_=A0Prop_?= hecy
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Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 22:05:29 -0400
From: kageorge <kageorge@erols.com>
Subject: Season Five dvd Commentary: The End of Innocence
Commentary w/screen captures can be found at:
http://www.wordsmiths.net/MacGeorge/episodes/Season5/Innocence.htm
COMMENTARY: Gilllian tells us she loves the right of passage element in
this story, realizing that your mentor, the one you had trusted to keep
you safe, disappoints you completely. It’s what happens in the flashback
when Graham Ashe doesn’t live up to Duncan’s expectations, and when
Richie realizes that there is no one who controls the world. It’s a
great growing-up moment for Richie when he realizes he can be friends
with MacLeod, but he can’t expect him to have all the answers, that
MacLeod is just a guy struggling with the world like everyone else.
Stan Kirsch says the title of the episode says it all. He was able to
bring the character to a different level by virtue of what was on the
page, and he had gone through a personal period of growth when he had
been away from the set. He and Adrian had not played a scene together in
a long time, and in the scene in the alley, there was a lot of what was
really happening between them, and it was nice to be able to use that.
F. Braun McAsh says that in this episode we see a different Richie, who
is trying to establish an independence from MacLeod. In going after
Carter Whellan, we see Richie use his knees and elbows. “A lot of
slamming” is going on the fight, and it is neither clean nor pretty. The
whole idea of the fight scene was what the fight tells about the
character and story, so it’s not a particularly pleasant view of Richie,
to unjustifiably attack someone to establish his own dominance and to
test his own abilities.
The director of the episode (Hameline) uses storyboarding, more than
most episodic television directors and it gives a very clear idea of
exactly what he wants with a fight. In this instance, he wanted a long
tracking shot for the final fight, which means it has to be done in one
master take. Therefore, the actors have to be able to sustain a long
piece of action with both drama and safety. The actor who was playing
Harrish Clay was very good, but they were also using a style consistent
with the character’s cultural background.
The ending scene, where they have the reconciliation handshake, was
evidently a real moment when Richie was now going to be on a number of
episodes, and when Adrian knew Stan wanted to grow as an actor and do
more of his own thing. It was a way of respecting that “Richie” wasn’t
always going to be “Duncan’s” sidekick and a way of acknowledging
friendship and brotherhood both among the characters and the actors.
Gillian says the character of Richie was really her avatar in the
series. She really liked stories that reflected her own growth as a
writer and as a person when it was shown as Richie’s development, and
that’s one reason she ended up fighting for Richie when the end of
season five came and Richie was on the chopping block.
OUTTAKES: There was a quickening scene filmed in the flashback when
Graham Ashe died, and we see Duncan ducking debris blowing around.
Then we see a missing scene between Richie and Duncan by Carter
Whellan’s grave which *should* have been shown, where Duncan describes
how he felt when he saw Graham Ashe die. We also see a shot of the scene
as Duncan describes his shame when Clay taunted him after Ashe died, and
he did nothing.
The last outtake is the final scene between Joe and Richie and Duncan,
where Richie blows his last line and Adrian gently thwaps Stan on the
back of the head. Then they repeat it and get through Duncan’s exit and
Richie asks what a guy has to do to get a drink. Joe takes Richie’s
glass and tries to fill it from the beer spigot, but nothing happens.
“F**king thing doesn’t work,” he laughs.
THE EPISODE: Prologue: Richie is working out in the dojo when MacLeod
enters demanding to know what Richie was doing there. He taunts Richie
about not having his sword as he forces him to his feet with the katana,
then swings… and Richie awakens from what appears to be a recurrent
nightmare.
The episode opens with Mac doing a long, strenuous knife kata in the
dojo. Joe Dawson enters. Mac continues his work out, just noting that
Joe shouldn’t be there, but Joe says there’s something they need to talk
about.
“No, we don’t have to talk about anything!” Duncan responds with a hard
thrust of the knife into an invisible opponent.
Finally, Duncan stops, and tiredly asks Joe to leave. “I’m an Immortal,
you’re a Watcher. We can’t cross that line. How many times do we have to
be taught that,” he insists, his voice breaking a little at the end.
But Joe says that it’s about Richie, and that finally makes Duncan stop
his workout. There is a segue to just after “Something Wicked”, where
Richie is grimly telling Joe that Mac was really going to take his head.
Joe tells him, “You know he couldn’t help it,” that it wasn’t really
Duncan MacLeod. But Richie asks who the hell was it, then, and that the
guy he trusted more than anyone else in the world tried to kill him, and
that the reason doesn’t matter.
Back in the dojo, Joe says Richie wasn’t the same after that, that
Richie had been traveling, picking fights and trying to make a name,
that he was going to get himself killed and Mac needs to talk to him.
Duncan tells him it’s not Joe’s business.
“No, it’s yours!” Joe insists, then angrily derides MacLeod for not
owing anybody anything, then he turns to leave, calling back where
Richie is located, saying Mac can do whatever he wants about it.
Richie is in the midst of another nightmare, reliving MacLeod
terrorizing him and almost killing him, when he awakens with a shout,
and feels another Immortal. He grabs his sword and goes outside to find
Duncan standing unthreateningly, his hands in his pockets. Richie is
ready to fight, but Duncan says he came to tell Richie he’s still his
friend, that he tried looking for Richie, tried calling him from Paris,
but he couldn’t find him anywhere.
Richie comments bitterly that he used to think about how there must be
some special thing he was supposed to do with his life, and that he had
the illusion that because Mac was his teacher, he would show Richie what
it was, and he did. He now understands: There Can Be Only One. “Thanks,
teach.” He says he’s been practicing, and that next time they fight it
won’t be so easy.
Duncan tells him he’d like to take back what happened, but he can’t, but
that Richie knows what he is doing is wrong. But Richie just walks away.
He heads to a motorcycle shop and tells the owner he wants to buy his
bike back, but the guy wants more money. Richie pours gasoline all
around, saying he wanted his bike back, finally intimidating the guy
enough that the man gives him his keys and he leaves with the guy
cursing at him.
He ends up in a bar with a pretty bartender who customers arm-wrestle
for free beers (she usually wins). Richie is rude about the beer, they
arm wrestle, and then a tall leather-clad Immortal walks in and jokes
teasingly with the bartender. Richie isn’t in a joking mood, and
threatens the guy. Even though the Immortal isn’t looking for a fight,
Richie pushes it and they end up in a deserted dirt lot. Again the guy
says they don’t have to fight, but Richie is determined. As they fight a
rather nasty battle, an elegant black man goes to the bar, looking for
Carter Whellan. At that point, Richie takes Whellan’s head, the black
man leaves the bar and goes looking, screaming “Carter!” just as Richie
drives off. “You’re a dead man, you hear me!” he screams after Richie.
“Dead!” He tracks Richie to his apartment, and breaks down the door, his
scimitar breaking Richie’s sword when he tries to defend himself. Richie
goes through a window and drives away on his motorcycle.
Joe goes to see a still-hostile Duncan to tell him that Richie is in
more trouble, showing him Richie’s broken sword. When he learns the
Immortal after Richie is Harrish Clay, there is a flashback, to Southern
Europe, 1657.
Duncan is taking lessons from a dandified, but expert swordmaster and
old Immortal by the name of Graham Ashe and Duncan learns that Ashe was
the teacher of Connor’s teacher Ramirez. (Duncan, petulantly: “No wonder
I’m losing here.”)
Ashe tells Duncan that there are better swordsman still, just as the
Kurgan was better than Ramirez, but that the sword “is not what you live
for. It just keeps you alive for the good stuff,” and that they are
blessed beyond reason with the give of Immortality, and it should be
cherished.
We see two men approaching, the Moor Harrish Clay and his English
squire, Carter Whellan. Clay challenges Ashe, saying they were destined
to meet one day. “The best day is always the one you’re in,” Ashe
responds philosophically, then insists that Duncan go to a nearby
churchyard and stay there.
Ashe and Clay fight as Duncan looks on, and Clay wins, gutting Ashe. As
Clay prepares to take his head Ashe asks Clay to spare his life. “What
did you say?” Clay asks, then Ashe begs on his knees. Clay is amazed,
but as a horrified an uncomprehending Duncan looks on, Ashe says he’ll
give anything if Clay will let him live. Clay isn’t interested, and
takes Ashe’s head.
Back in the present, Joe says that Richie is his friend and wants to
know if Duncan will help. “Richie’s not your friend!” Duncan insists,
grabbing Joe’s arm and holding up the tattoo he sees there. “*This* is
who you are, Joe!” Joe tells Duncan that being a Watcher is as much a
part of who Joe is as being part of Clan MacLeod is to Duncan. “Then for
once,” Duncan says grimly, “keep your vow. Don’t interfere,” and
whatever he does for Richie, it’s not Joe’s business. “We’re through, Joe.”
That night, Richie goes to Joe’s, but when Richie asks Joe to lend him a
couple of thousand dollars to buy a sword, Joe refuses. Richie bitterly
reminds him that Joe shot MacLeod to save his life, but Joe tells him
that was a mistake. “Saving my life was a mistake?” Richie asks, but Joe
says he didn’t mean it that way. Joe says as a friend he wants to help,
but as a Watcher, he can’t. “That’s convenient, Joe!” Richie snarls, and
leaves.
Richie breaks into a museum to try (unsuccessfully) to steal a sword on
display, but Clay has followed him. When Richie insists there is no
honor in killing an unarmed man, Clay tells him he didn’t come for his
honor, he came for his head. The police arrive and Richie happily
surrenders to them as Clay gets away.
Duncan posts Richie’s bail and the two of them ending up going for a
drive so Duncan can tell him about Ashe and Clay, insisting that the
fight with Clay is his. Richie just laughs him off, saying the days of
Duncan protecting him are long gone. Duncan insists it isn’t about
protecting Richie, that he needs to finish what happened so long ago.
Richie says Duncan will just have to find Clay first and Duncan gives
Richie Graham Ashe’s sword.
“So, I guess I owe you one,” Richie says reluctantly.
“No, I owe you one,” Duncan responds.
Richie goes looking for Clay at the bar where he met Whellan, but his
nasty attitude doesn’t get him anywhere. Joe tries charm instead, and he
tracks down Clay’s whereabouts. Duncan goes to Joe, and Joe derides him
for coming to him to find Clay. “Hell of a thing,” Joe says, “weighing
ethics and honor against a friend’s life.” But then Joe gives him Clay’s
address anyway and shows him a scar where his tattoo used to be. He says
Duncan was right, he couldn’t be both Duncan’s Watcher and his friend.
Duncan and Richie manage to track down Clay at the same time, ending up
in a cemetery where Clay has buried Carter. Duncan again tries to stop
Richie, telling him that this was about Richie seeing Duncan for who he
really is, that he’s not Richie’s father or guardian angel, and that
fighting Clay isn’t about Richie at all.
They both confront Clay at Carter’s gravesite, and Clay brokenheartedly
talks about what it is like to lose a friend after 900 years. Richie
steps up and says he’s ready to fight, but Duncan finally tells Richie
what happened after Clay took Ashe’s head, that Clay came to him on holy
ground and taunted and shamed him, terrified him and Duncan did nothing.
Duncan asks Richie to let him take the fight, and Richie (wisely, at
last) agrees.
The fight is highly stylized and slightly ritualistic, done mostly in a
few long takes. At the end, Duncan offers to let Clay live if he won’t
go after Richie. (Clay: “It’s what we do.”)
The final scene is in the bar, where Duncan is sitting alone upstairs
and Joe is telling Richie that what hurts about not being in the
Watchers is that he lost a lot of good friends. Richie comments that all
the cloak-and-dagger stuff didn’t seem like Joe’s style. Joe says that
it wasn’t supposed to be like that.
“Then make it right,” Duncan says, asking if Joe can get back in to the
Watchers. He tells Joe that someday, there would be no more Immortals
left. “I know what I said. But our lives, our story, has to be recorded.
Not by some petty clerk, but by someone who feels, someone who does.
Someone who has honor. Like you.” Joe asks about their friendship.
“We’ll work it out.” Duncan offers Richie a hand to shake and after a
moment Richie takes it. Duncan says he’ll see them around, and leaves.
MY COMMENTS: The theme of the episode is an admirable one, but there was
something essential lacking in its execution. The characters of Graham
Ashe, Carter Whellan and Harrish Clay were all well drawn in only a few
short scenes, the flashback was terrific (and it was nice to see a tacit
recognition of a long term, positive homosexual relationship), and we
saw Joe and Duncan and Richie work through what had been completely
fractured relationships, trying to find some sense of common ground and
peace. It was past time for Richie to grow up and realize that Duncan
was human and fallible and didn’t have all the answers to life’s
problems. Unfortunately, the episode centered on Richie’s angst and it
came across, to me at least, as a typical overwrought teenage response
to stress, which was that everything in the universe was all about
*him*. He was petulant, rude, nasty and generally obnoxious. I didn’t
find his fears particularly sympathetic because he was so utterly,
completely self-involved.
Reacting to the trauma of his teacher’s attack with anger and acting-out
is not particularly surprising, but I find it a little hard to reconcile
his initial reaction to Duncan’s attack to his later attitude. Richie
knew about Coltec and the Dark Quickening and appeared to initially
understand what was going on (“Joe, he needs help!”), but evidently he
quickly decided to completely dismiss any explanation for Duncan’s
behavior other than that his hero was suddenly just a bad guy following
the TCBOO rule – in other words, it had nothing to do with Coltec or a
Dark Quickening, was All About Richie (typical teenage reaction).
I didn’t really blame Duncan for getting exasperated with Joe, given the
recent awful history and multitude of deaths (including Joe’s
near-death) because of their friendship. In the end, it was a real risk
to encourage Joe to rejoin the Watchers. How could Joe not find himself
betraying his oath again and again, how could there not be more
irreconcilable conflicts potentially costing more lives? I can only
assume that Duncan felt they had learned some lessons that might avoid
that. Duncan the Ever Hopeful. That’s our guy.
One line I thought was particularly interesting. When Duncan is heading
out to fight Clay, he tells Richie, “If he takes me, he’ll take you, too.”
“Then don’t let him.”
To me that seems deliberately evocative of Young Duncan’s line advising
Older Duncan how to defeat Kantos: “Then don’t listen.” I still maintain
that the key to defeating Kantos had nothing to do with earplugs, and
everything to do with Duncan’s restored faith in himself. It is a
recurrent theme that we see in this episode, again in the AAA arc and
even in the final episode of the series.
Since Something Wicked and OMTM, all the characters are among the
walking wounded. Unfortunately, in this episode they were generally
unpleasant to one another throughout in a way that diminished them all,
making it difficult to watch (for me at least) and thus, while there are
things about it that I like (the kata, the flashback, the scene between
Joe and the pretty bartender), it’s not a favorite.
MacGeorge
All episode commentaries at:
http://www.wordsmiths.net/MacGeorge/episodes/indexframeset.htm
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 08:54:52 EDT
From: Bizarro7@aol.com
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20Season=20Five=20dvd=20Commentary:=20=A0Prop?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?hecy?=
In a message dated 9/2/2004 1:38:57 PM Eastern Standard Time,
immortals_incorporated@cox.net writes:
A mother cat might bring home a harmless mouse for the kittens to bat around,
she wouldn't bring home a badger (or a wolverine)(or a weasel) and set it
loose among her kittens in hopes they would find a way to kill it before it
killed them.
You're own opinion as to how much of a 'mouse' or 'badger' of a threat Kantos
was, for Duncan. Again, Immortals play for keeps. Mice don't try to kill
cats. Bringing something that might kill an Immortal was her only option, in order
to have Duncan take it seriously. More specifically, an Immortal who didn't
fight by conventional means. She was giving him hints the entire episode. To
me, it was a rather obvious training drill against a specific type of unusual
threat. As much as you dismiss her, Cassandra stuck around to protect him during
his pre-Immortal childhood. Lucky for us.
If the mouse gets out of line, the mother cat can kill it. Cassandra was,
apparently, helpless before Kantos' power. How was she going to save Duncan if
things went bad?
It never occured to you that in order to tell the entire episode, Cassandra
might have been pretending to be completely helpless? Interesting. I guess she
was very convincing for you.
How is sticking wax in his ears thinking outside the box or the Rules?
Obviously, the writers thought so...and I happen to agree with them. Take it
up with them, as this was the twist of the entire episode, and the point was
for Duncan to return to the idealism of his younger self...perfect timing for
such a lesson, right after the previous episode.
Is it different than using two swords instead of one? Different than
stabbing up and back while appearing to kneel for the final blow? Different than
using a bitch in heat to defeat an adversary with male dogs? Different than
cutting Kalas' throat with a piece of glass or chopping Xavier's hand off? Kantos
used his voice as a weapon....Duncan found a way to neutralize that weapon. He
did it with a simple bit of wax ...something that shouldn't have required a
time-traveling episode to think of. Once the extraneous "noise" was removed,
Duncan treated Kantos like any other Immortal (which is all he was). Of course
one could argue that Duncan's entire life as we saw it was preparation for
fighting Ahriman..but I defy anyone to claim that that was the TPTB's plan from
Day One.
Now you're starting to sound as if you dislike the handling of the entire
series. Again, you'll have to take it up with the writers, if you believe that
every single episode ends with Duncan defeating the latest Kimmie by means of a
'cheap trick.'
>>>If anything was preparation for facing Ahriman, it was the Holy Hot Tub
>..and that was *Methos* not Cassandra's doing.<<
>
>No relation. The 'Holy Hot Tub' was a quick fix that Methos had found at
>some point in his distant past, for healing an Immortal with the specific
>problem of a Dark Quickening.
No relation? No relation? Let's see...while in the HHT, Duncan faces a shadow
enemy - an illusion - and comes to realize that good and evil are two halves
of everyone. The fight takes place in Duncan's mind and it is in Duncan's mind
where the victory is won. When facing Ahriman - a shadow enemy - an illusion-
Duncan comes to realize that everyone is both good and evil. Evil is defeated
when you accept that fact and choose good. It all takes place in Duncan's
mind and that is where the victory is won. Gee...seems like his experience in the
HHT might have given him *some* insight into fighting Ahriman.
You've just proven my point for me...that everything in Season 5 is tied
together by a theme. The "no relation" part is the part that *you* cited, about
Methos using the Holy Hot Tub as a way of solving Duncan's immediate
split-personality problem. Thanks for reinforcing my argument, however.
>
>Go back and watch the episode. Duncan actually *hears* Cassandra deliver
>the Prophecy in the soundtrack, at one point, in Tracy's voice.
Yes, he hears her voice. But she isn't in the episode.
Now you're just covering your error by splitting hairs. Fuggedabout it.
>>>Cassandra struck me as moderately useless in "Prophecy and almost
>completely useless in CaH/Rev. I don't think she was "playing" at being
>the damsel in distress, I think she *was* the damsel in distress.
>Wendy(Why didn't she just shoot Kantos and take his head?)<<
>Why, indeed? Because it would serve no purpose. She needed Duncan to learn
>by the experience. And killing him somewhere off the episode would teach
>him nothing.
This assumes that Cassandra knew in "Prophecy" that the real enemy was
Ahriman. I don't believe that.
You don't believe that the writers planned it ahead of time. I do, because A)
they told the audience so in response to a direct question at a convention
and B) Cassandra actually *is* in the episode, and Duncan and Richie allude to
her, and they *remind* you of her in the actual episode via her voice.
Disagreeing with it doesn't make the canonical evidence go away.
After the fact, one can go back and argue that she must have known more than
she said (or else she comes off as a pretty sad excuse for a prophet<g>) but
nothing in the episode itself suggests that.
...Except Cassandra, IN THE EPISODE, remind Duncan of the prophecy. Sheesh!
Was Garrick also training for Ahriman?
Nope. Garrick was previous canonical proof that there *were* other Immortals
out there with psychic abilities, long before Cassandra showed up.
Lots of Immortals have had tricks but, in the end, the solution is always to
chop their heads off. The solution to Ahriman was to *not* chop his head off.
..which is why I maintain that the inner battle he fought in "Deliverance" is
a much better "teaching point" than his defeat of Kantos.
If we learn by studying only one subject at school, we are ill prepared for
life. You don't study *any* discipline by sticking to just one technique or
approach.
I don't think you can have it both ways. Either Cassandra's prophecy related
to Kantos, and nothing Cassandra could do would have prevented their meeting,
or else her prophecy related to Ahriman and Kantos was never any threat to
Duncan. And, if Duncan is the Millennial Champion of Zoroastrianism, then he was
in no danger from Ahriman either because the Champion of Light always wins.
Good and Evil must battle but Good must win.
But Good's gotta be ready. The whole point of the season.
Wendy (Of course Duncan had to win because he was the star.)(Talk about
predestined outcome!)
Did he win? Really? Was he completely prepared? Because Richie is still dead
by his hand, so I don't see that as anything but a qualified and
*realistically* tragic outcome. One could argue that when Duncan asks Cassandra if he will
die, and she evasively looks away and says "I see Death," she was alluding
obliquely to the fact that, at the end of the battle (season), Richie will be
dead by Duncan's hand.
Leah
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 08:22:23 -0500
From: Ginny <RED57@aol.com>
Subject: Highlander Toon Movie In Development (Film In 2006)
That pretty much says it all, doesn't it?
>From SciFi.com:
http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-main.html?2004-09/02/10.00.film
The venerable Highlander franchise is on track to become an animated
movie for release in spring 2006, Variety reported. Davis-Panzer
Productions and Imagi International are developing the project,
which will be animated through Madhouse of Japan (Tokyo Godfathers),
the trade paper reported. David Abramowitz, who was head writer on
the Highlander TV series, will write the screenplay.
Okay, well then. Sci Fi reports it, I just scratch my head. Will they
recycle a few old scripts? Retell the original story again? Revive
Quentin or whatever his name was?
--
Ginny
RED57@aol.com
Fresh out of .sig lines
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 15:38:20 -0400
From: Helva Peters <HelvaP@compuserve.com>
Subject: Season Five dvd Commentary: Prophecy
MacWestie said:
> And, what "boy" had anything to do w/ defeating Ahriman? All I can come up
> there w/ is Richie--& failing to duck isn't the sort of crucial contribution
> usually meriting a prophecy mention.
Thoughts:
1.) Richie made a lot of noise (as Richie was wont to do) about him and Mac
being "in this together, no matter what!" How much more 'together' could they
be than one carrying the other's Q?
2.) By 'failing to duck', Richie passed on The Messenger's Q to Duncan. How
much did The Ultimate Pacifist contribute to Duncan's decision/ability to
_not_ fight Ahriman?
(It bothers me that neither Joe nor Methos ever pointed that out to Duncan!)
3.) If Richie had understood/believed what was at stake, and had been aware of
(maybe) 1 and/or (definitely) 2, he would have insisted that Mac take his
head. Maybe his gut knew more than his head.
> Cassie's prophecy was written for Kantos; stretching it to cover the 4
> Horsemen or Ahriman is ludicrous.
Prophecies are seldom understood/interpreted correctly, even by the oracle.
Being flexed and stretched is part of the territory.
tangent:
The original 'Cassandra' had the gift of Prophecy coupled with the curse of
not being believed.
Wendy said:
> The episode only makes sense if you believe that Cassandra is convinced
> that Kantos is the Evil mentioned in the prophecy.
Agreed, but being convinced and being right are not always the same.
And if the Prophecy really _was_ about Ahriman, which makes Kantos a practice
run, does Young Duncan make more sense or less?
- Helva
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 09:48:22 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Highlander Toon Movie In Development (Film In 2006)
> The venerable Highlander franchise is on track to become an animated
> movie for release in spring 2006 ....
> That pretty much says it all, doesn't it?
Except--Direct to DVD.
Nina
mac.westie@verizon.net
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:27:51 -0400
From: Gregory Mate <gmate@rogers.com>
Subject: Re: Highlander Toon Movie In Development (Film In 2006)
Ginny:
> The venerable Highlander franchise is on track to become an animated
> movie for release in spring 2006 ....
> That pretty much says it all, doesn't it?
Nina:
> Except--Direct to DVD.
And...anime-style cartoon!
....Greg....
gmate@rogers.com
(I can see it now: Trying to revive the defunct Highlander collectible card game, children in the cartoon will wander around with their deck of Highlander trading cards, pulling out their favourite Immortal, coming to life to do battle with other children's favourite Immortals from *their* deck. Duncan fights the Kurgan! Amanda vs. Connor! And if an Immortal is beheaded, no problem since they're just cards and can fight again another day! Gotta tap into that lucrative tween market!)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:51:11 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Season_Five_dvd_Commentary:_=A0Prophecy?=
Helva--
>>>2.) By 'failing to duck', Richie passed on The Messenger's Q to Duncan.
How
much did The Ultimate Pacifist contribute to Duncan's decision/ability to
_not_ fight Ahriman?
(It bothers me that neither Joe nor Methos ever pointed that out to
Duncan!)>>>
This was really only dealt w/ in SW/DEL re: the Dark Q. There, Koltec's
involvement & his old "taking the evil" tribal priest role clouded the
issue, so it wasn't established that anything other than an amorphous
"power" passes w/ the average Q.
As a practical matter, it doesn't work for the show to have specific
abilities or even philosophical inclinations passed from Immie to Immie via
Qs. For one thing, most BHd Immies are evil--so, you'd have your hero
regularly picking up nasty habits & attitudes just about every episode.
(Singing bad opera after Kalas, doing crappy sculpture after Garrick, &
craving chocolate covered insects after Caspian would be the _least_ of it.)
And, who really wants to see, say, Kristin's fashion sense come out in
Methos?
>>>The original 'Cassandra' had the gift of Prophecy coupled with the curse
of
not being believed.>>>
Sadly, Hercules offered a better Cassandra than did Highander. Of course,
Claudia Black's performance easily made up for that show's flaws.
Leah--
>>> As much as you dismiss her, Cassandra stuck around to protect him during
> his pre-Immortal childhood. >>>
Or, maybe she was just horny.
> It never occured to you that in order to tell the entire episode,
Cassandra
> might have been pretending to be completely helpless?
Then I guess she was pretending to be completely helpless during all 3 of
her eps. Interesting character defense....
> ...Except Cassandra, IN THE EPISODE, remind Duncan of the prophecy.
Sheesh!
A lot like that Darius clip that was stuck into so many season 2 eps; that
didn't mean he was IN the show. (And Darius was a FAR more important
influence on DM than Cassie--who he seemed to forget from childhood to that
day she showed up in the loft.) Plus, they threw everything but the kitchen
sink into Archangel, so a 10 second clip isn't that impressive. If Cassie &
her prophecy were that relevant, how come Archangel also gave us the
Hermit's prophecy, & Avatar later gave us the doomed professor's prophecy?
Why not just KEEP repeating Cassie's words, if it was really about Ahriman?
Further, if you see Cassie & her prophecy as so integral to Archangel, you
need to recall that DM totally FAILED to stop Ahriman in that ep. He fell
into Ahriman's trap, so that his supposed friends thought him a loon & then
he all but destroyed himself by killing Richie--exactly as Ahriman wanted.
So, if anything, Cassie failed yet again in Archangel. DM then left Paris &
only a year later was able to return &--eventually, over 2 eps--come to
realize the way to defeat Ahriman, to the extent evil is ever defeated. In
that interim & over those 2 eps, DM got info, support & guidance from lots
of folks & sources--none of them Cassie & her old prophecy.
Nina
mac.westie@verizon.net
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:47:20 -0500
From: Kamil <kamilaa@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Season Five dvd Commentary: Prophecy
<Nina>
> This was really only dealt w/ in SW/DEL re: the Dark Q. There, Koltec's
> involvement & his old "taking the evil" tribal priest role clouded the
> issue, so it wasn't established that anything other than an amorphous
> "power" passes w/ the average Q.
Ehh, there was that weird business about Richie taking up cigars after
he'd taken whatzisface's head. But in general, I agree, the good guys
would proably be overwhelmed in no time if Q's worked that way every
time.
<Nina>
> And, who really wants to see, say, Kristin's fashion sense come out in
> Methos?
And you say fanfiction is evil. *scrubs brain*
Plus, they threw everything but the kitchen
> sink into Archangel,
I'm fairly sure I saw one of those as well. I think the dwarf was
sitting in it. <g>
--
Kamil
The monitors have different web sites on them; chat rooms. A web of
vines and roots entwine the keyboards, type the keys. Oh but wait, you
say -- a tree-like flesh-demon with internet access is unrealistic!
It's a talking-for-god's-sakes-tree.
Get over it.
Tim Minear & Jeffrey Bell "Couplet" Shooting Script
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 19:14:38 -0500
From: Ginny <RED57@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Highlander Toon Movie In Development (Film In 2006)
Gregory Mate wrote on 9/3/2004, 3:27 PM:
> Ginny:
> > The venerable Highlander franchise is on track to become an animated
> > movie for release in spring 2006 ....
>
> > That pretty much says it all, doesn't it?
>
> Nina:
> > Except--Direct to DVD.
>
> And...anime-style cartoon!
Oh, of course, you're both right, it's the DVD and Anime/Card game
angle. D'oh!
> ....Greg....
> gmate@rogers.com
> (I can see it now: Trying to revive the defunct Highlander collectible
> card game, children in the cartoon will wander around with their deck
> of Highlander trading cards, pulling out their favourite Immortal...
<snip>
...getting banned at schools, parents in an uproar over "satanic,
violent" game, planned obsolescence of "rare" cards to drive up value,
barking mad auctions at E-bay, and at least one obessessed collector
will take to wearing a sword around town and be contacted by police.
It's deja vu all over again.
--
Ginny
RED57@aol.com
Fresh out of .sig lines
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 20:34:14 -0400
From: Wendy Tillis <immortals_incorporated@cox.net>
Subject: =?us-ascii?Q?Re:_Season_Five_dvd_Commentary:_=A0Prop_?= hecy
Leah:
>It never occured to you that in order to tell the entire episode, Cassandra
>might have been pretending to be completely helpless? Interesting. I guess
>she was very convincing for you.
And, again I ask for any evidence from the episode that she *wasn't* just as helpless as she seemed and that she knew the prophecy related to Ahriman and not Kantos.
>Once the extraneous "noise" was removed, Duncan treated Kantos like
> any other Immortal (which is all he was). Of course
>one could argue that Duncan's entire life as we saw it was preparation for
>fighting Ahriman..but I defy anyone to claim that that was the TPTB's plan
>from Day One.
>Now you're starting to sound as if you dislike the handling of the entire
>series. Again, you'll have to take it up with the writers, if you believe
>that every single episode ends with Duncan defeating the latest Kimmie by means
>of a 'cheap trick.'
Oh, give me a break. I didn't say I disliked the handling of the entire series and I didn't say that every episode ended with Duncan defeating the latest Kimmie with a cheap trick. I said that there were other examples throughout the Series of Duncan having to find an "out of the box" solution in order to succeed. I said that, given all the other times Duncan used innovative techniques to kill Immortals, he didn't need a special teaching moment with Kantos. Yes, facing Kantos required some special preparation but that wasn't unique to Kantos. I said that, looking back, one could use some old episodes to bolster the revelation that Duncan was the Champion of Zoroastrianism but that I doubted that TPTB planned that when the series started. Are you saying that you *do* believe that the plan was to have Duncan end up fighting a Zoroastrian demon for the fate of world from the moment Duncan said "I feel something"?
me:
>>>>If anything was preparation for facing Ahriman, it was the Holy Hot Tub
>>..and that was *Methos* not Cassandra's doing.<<
Leah:
>>No relation. The 'Holy Hot Tub' was a quick fix that Methos had found at
>>some point in his distant past, for healing an Immortal with the specific
>>problem of a Dark Quickening.
me:
>No relation? No relation? Let's see...while in the HHT, Duncan faces a
>shadow enemy - an illusion - and comes to realize that good and evil are two
>halves of everyone. The fight takes place in Duncan's mind and it is in Duncan's
>mind where the victory is won. When facing Ahriman - a shadow enemy - an
>illusion- Duncan comes to realize that everyone is both good and evil. Evil is
>defeated when you accept that fact and choose good. It all takes place in Duncan's
>mind and that is where the victory is won. Gee...seems like his experience
>in the HHT might have given him *some* insight into fighting Ahriman.
Leah:
>You've just proven my point for me...that everything in Season 5 is tied
>together by a theme.
Except that the HHT was in Season 4 <g>
>The "no relation" part is the part that *you* cited,
>about Methos using the Holy Hot Tub as a way of solving Duncan's immediate
>split-personality problem. Thanks for reinforcing my argument, however.
I'd think you were purposely misreading what I wrote except that I know you wouldn't do that.
You originally stated that facing Kantos was preparation for facing Ahriman. I suggested that facing a regular Immortal that needed his head chopped off was less preparation than Duncan's battle in the HHT. *You* are the one who seems focused on the use of the HHT solely as a cure for the split-personality problem, *I* was suggesting that it could be seen as one of those teaching moments you like. Maybe Methos brought him to the cave (as Cassandra lead Kantos to Duncan) to show him how to fight an inner battle - just like the inner battle he would some day face against Ahriman. Which experience - fighting an inner battle in the HHT or sticking wax in his ears and beheading his opponent- is *more* like the final battle with Ahriman? Which experience made him face the fact that there is good and bad in each of us (a main tenet of Zoroastrianism) ? My point, which you seem to have missed, is that the experience in the HHT much more closely mirrors the events of AAA and that!
it was Methos who taught Duncan this lesson, not Cassandra. And so, if I were to name a person who was a teacher to Duncan on his road to the Grand Championship, I'd put Methos' name before Cassandra's. Now, personally, I don't think *either* of them was acting in that specific capacity.
>This assumes that Cassandra knew in "Prophecy" that the real enemy was
>Ahriman. I don't believe that.
>You don't believe that the writers planned it ahead of time. I do, because
>A) they told the audience so in response to a direct question at a convention
>and
As everyone knows, things that TPTB tell audiences after the fact at conventions have zero evidentiary value in discussing what the episodes actually show. Nothing in "Prophecy" shows ....even hints.... to the viewer that Cassandra had any doubts about Kantos being the Evil Voice of the prophecy.
I am perfectly willing to accept that the writers *did* intend all along to use Cassandra's prophecy twice . .. that they intended it to mean Ahriman from the beginning. I'll even accept that the writers *intended* Cassandra to know all along that the real enemy was Ahriman. What I totally disagree with is that they managed to convey that "fact" to the audience *in* "Prophecy." Again, there is nothing in "Prophecy" that points to a second, even greater, enemy to whom the prophecy really relates.
>B) Cassandra actually *is* in the episode, and Duncan and Richie
>allude to her, and they *remind* you of her in the actual episode via her voice.
>Disagreeing with it doesn't make the canonical evidence go away.
I think all I really disagreed with was whether she was an important part in AAA. Cassandra is *in* three episodes of HL.: Prophecy, CaH, and Revelations. She is referenced in AAA and shown in a tiny flashback. She doesn't contribute anything new to the arc other than a memory.
>After the fact, one can go back and argue that she must have known more
>than she said (or else she comes off as a pretty sad excuse for a prophet<g>)
>but nothing in the episode itself suggests that.
>...Except Cassandra, IN THE EPISODE, remind Duncan of the prophecy. Sheesh!
Yes, yes, yes..Cassandra is in the episode. He remembers what she said. He hears the prophecy again. Ok? And the "prophecy" she reminds him of is the same prophecy that she had earlier told him related to Kantos. There is nothing new. She doesn't show up and help. She doesn't call and say "hey, about that prophecy..." She doesn't appear in flashback doing something we didn't see her do in the first episode she was actually in. Again, the writers had to do *something* to show any new viewers that there had been an earlier prophecy. So, using a clip and voiceover was a way to do that. It doesn't grant Cassandra any great importance to the episode. It also doesn't prove that Cassandra knew about Ahriman when Kantos was around.
me:
>Was Garrick also training for Ahriman?
Leah:
>Nope. Garrick was previous canonical proof that there *were* other
>Immortals out there with psychic abilities, long before Cassandra showed up.
But why can't we go back and look for other clues that Duncan was going to need to think outside the box in his eventual battle with Ahriman? Duncan has been the presumptive Champion since he was born, right? His entire existence has been leading toward the final confrontation with Ahriman, right? You said he needed to learn to think outside the box to fight an enemy with mystical powers. If that's true, why *wasn't* Garrick also a teaching moment in Duncan's life? How do you know that the same Fates that decreed that Duncan was Champion didn't arrange a variety of battles for him over the years to test and train him?
> And, if Duncan is the Millennial Champion of Zoroastrianism, then
>he was in no danger from Ahriman either because the Champion of Light always wins.
>Good and Evil must battle but Good must win.
>But Good's gotta be ready. The whole point of the season.
Does it? Is it?
And just how "ready" was Duncan? Not very. "Archangel" is one long series of missteps and mistakes ending in Richie's demise. He wasn't ready to face Ahriman. He wasn't prepared to think "outside the box" - at least not so far outside that he believed in demons. What good was Cassandra's preparation (if preparation it was meant to be)? He had to kill his student and then spend a year in a monastery before he was ready to fight Ahriman (in the earlier drafts he was going to spend 20 years away). If Cassandra's purpose was to prepare Duncan for the final fight, I'd say she did a very marginal job.
Me:
>Wendy (Of course Duncan had to win because he was the star.)(Talk about
>predestined outcome!)
Leah:
>Did he win? Really?
Well, he was alive. And the world was saved from bleeding roses and red fog.
>Was he completely prepared?
No one is ever completely prepared.
>Because Richie is still dead by his hand, so I don't see that as anything but a qualified and
>*realistically* tragic outcome.
There is no victory without some cost. The hero seldom gets out unscathed. Frodo doesn't get to live happily ever after in the Shire. A Champion fights for the greater good, nor for himself. Duncan defeated Ahriman. The world was saved. That's called "winning". That Duncan was emotionally hurt (not the first time) ... that Duncan killed a friend (not the first time) does not mean that Duncan didn't "win". He was changed (for the short or long term we'll never know) but within less than a year he was boinking visiting Immortals and taking the occasional head - just like the old days.
>One could argue that when Duncan asks
>Cassandra if he will die, and she evasively looks away and says "I see Death,"
> she was alluding obliquely to the fact that, at the end of the battle (season), Richie will
>be dead by Duncan's hand.
Or one could say that she knew that someone was going to die eventually and she just plain didn't know who. She says she only sees fragments, never the whole. I mean...come on.... we're talking about people who chop off heads on a regular basis. If she *didn't* see death, it would've been a wonder.
And, to be accurate, Duncan says "did you see my death?". Maybe she did see his death ....only it was at some later date unrelated to Kantos or Ahriman. She might have seen him die in a space ship in 2156 still battling other immortals for the Prize. She might have seen him slip in the shower and die is a freak broken glass door accident in 2010. She might have seen him die by her own hand a few years later when he continued to favor Methos over her. Or, since you chose to use the capital "D" for death, maybe she saw Methos (Death on a Horse) killing Duncan over the last cold beer some summer night. There is absolutely no way to tie Richie's eventual death to Cassandra's "look" (which you saw as "evasive" and I saw as "frustrated at her own inability to see what she wanted to see") .
Wendy(All this for "Prophecy")(Imagine what CaH/Rev will bring.)
Immortals Inc.
immortals_incorporated@cox.net
"Weasels for Eternity"
------------------------------
End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 2 Sep 2004 to 3 Sep 2004 - Special issue (#2004-168)
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