HIGHLA-L Digest - 1 Sep 2004 to 2 Sep 2004 (#2004-167)
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Thu, 2 Sep 2004 22:00:10 -0400
There are 6 messages totalling 546 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Season Five dvd Commentary: Prophecy (3)
2. Season Five dvd Commentary: Prophecy (2)
3. Bi-Monthly Reminder
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 22:29:04 -0400
From: kageorge <kageorge@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Season Five dvd Commentary: Prophecy
Wendy Tillis wrote:
>me:
>
>
>>(Why didn't she just shoot Kantos and take his head?)(Save everyone
>>some trouble)(Oh yeah, the prophecy said *Duncan* had to kill him.)(Belief
>>in prophecy can make you stupid.)
>>
>>
>
>MacG:
>
>
>>I only had one comment about your last statement. It is my
>>understanding that prophecy <snip> is the
>>foresight of some inevitable circumstance or outcome.
>>
>>
>
>If the conclusion is inevitable...then attempting to thwart it shouldn't matter, should it? In effect, the assumed "inevitability" acts as a deterrent. Cassandra believes that only Duncan can kill Kantos - so she doesn't even try.
>
>OTOH, if Cassandra is such a believer, why is she so damned worried about Duncan? Either he *is* the one who will kill the Evil Voice, or he isn't. If he isn't, nothing she can do will help him....if he is, nothing she can do will hinder him.
>
>
I'm not going to get into a general argument about the validity or
stupidity of the general notion of prophecies in real life. I am saying
that, for this particular fictional universe, a prophecy was offered as
real and valid. The prophecy didn't state that the Highland child, born
on the Winter Soltice... (yadda, yadda) would *kill* Kantos, only that
someone of that description was the only one who could challenge him.
It was left open as to who would survive the encounter.
Therefore, it wasn't up to Cassandra to be the one to take on Kantos,
only the Highland... blah, blah, blah, and exactly how a successful
challenge might be achieved was a mystery. Again, I am no fan of
Cassandra, I just think her actions were understandable within the
context of the reality which had been constructed. If you insist that
prophecies in real life are a generally stupid proposition and therefore
the fictional prophecy can't be real, then you remove the underpinning
from the story and of course all the logic falls apart. However, it is
just as easy to say that Immortality and Quickenings aren't real, and
all suspenders of disbelief snap and you have no fictional universe at
all and that's no fun. <g>
MacG
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:39:36 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_Season_Five_dvd_Commentary:_=A0Prophecy?=
Leah--
> Ah, but it's canonical that he *did* (he even 'saw' and heard Cassandra's
warning in the episode), so it worked.
Cheap reuse of stock footage. May as well contend Duncan was in several eps
of HL: Raven, just because TPTB grabbed HL:TS footage of parties,
battlefields, etc. where he appeared, rather than attempt to film decent
flashbacks for HL Light. Cassie hadn't a clue about Ahriman--because the
writers didn't as of the start of season 5. They really weren't planning
that far ahead at that point; if they had been, surely they'd have come up
w/ something a bit better....
Besides--how, exactly, does Cassie's prophecy work re: Ahriman? She said in
Prophecy--
a Highland foundling born on the winter solstice will pass from darkness
into light & survive to challenge, as the man & the boy, the evil one w/ the
voice of death.
Hmmm. It all fits the Kantos situation to a tee, but it doesn't fit the 4
Horsemen scenario at all. Also, Ahriman wasn't a darkness & light kind of
evil--it was all blood & red, just like in old Hermie's cave prophecy.
Ahriman took forms of the people who had power--good & bad--over DM &
chatted no end, but there was no particular "voice of death" component.
And, what "boy" had anything to do w/ defeating Ahriman? All I can come up
there w/ is Richie--& failing to duck isn't the sort of crucial contribution
usually meriting a prophecy mention.
Cassie's prophecy was written for Kantos; stretching it to cover the 4
Horsemen or Ahriman is ludicrous. That's why they wrote the brand spanking
new--& relevant--prophey for Archangel's flashback. Of curse, the question
_that_ raised is just why DM totally blanked it from his mind for hundreds
of years; one would think everything related to his 1st Q & the horrific
details of that Immie encounter would have been memorable.
Wendy--
>>>Mostly they are stated in ambiguous terms so the prophet can avoid being
stoned to death when his prophecy fails to materialize as foretold.>>>
Reminds me of Angel's Wesley--poster boy for prophecy screw-ups, & all he
had to do was translate them.
Nina
mac.westie@verizon.net
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 23:50:00 -0500
From: Debra Douglass <ddoug@catrio.org>
Subject: Bi-Monthly Reminder
(updated 8/1/00) HIGHLA-L Bi-Monthly Reminders
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 12:51:39 -0400
From: Wendy Tillis <immortals_incorporated@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Season Five dvd Commentary: Prophecy
MacG:
>for this particular fictional universe, a prophecy was offered as
>real and valid. The prophecy didn't state that the Highland child, born
>on the Winter Soltice... (yadda, yadda) would *kill* Kantos, only that
>someone of that description was the only one who could challenge him.
>It was left open as to who would survive the encounter.
>
>Therefore, it wasn't up to Cassandra to be the one to take on Kantos,
>only the Highland... blah, blah, blah, and exactly how a successful
>challenge might be achieved was a mystery. Again, I am no fan of
>Cassandra, I just think her actions were understandable within the
>context of the reality which had been constructed.
But even those who believe in prophecies should be able to comprehend that they are dicey to interpret. Witness the fact that Cassandra apparently was all wrong about Kantos. She admits that she sees only fragments. There is such a thing as saying "trust God (or Prophecy) and pass the ammunition." One can believe in prophecy and work to either thwart it or to help it along. After all, if it *is* Duncan who is destined to fight Kantos, then Cassandra can't change it. If, OTOH, she did kill Kantos, she would have proven that her interpretation of the prophecy was wrong and she could have gone back and rethought the whole matter. Leading Kantos right to Duncan just seemed like a bad idea to me. I'd at least have called Duncan and had him meet me on Holy Ground so I could explain what was going on without worrying about Kantos forcing a fight before Duncan was ready. The fact that she had hundreds of years to study the prophecy and plan what to do about it and she still 1) almos!
t lost Duncan to Kantos before she told Duncan the "facts" and 2) was wrong about who the prophecy related to would argue against blindly assuming that the future was both known and immutable.
> If you insist that
>prophecies in real life are a generally stupid proposition and therefore
>the fictional prophecy can't be real, then you remove the underpinning
>from the story and of course all the logic falls apart. However, it is
>just as easy to say that Immortality and Quickenings aren't real, and
>all suspenders of disbelief snap and you have no fictional universe at
>all and that's no fun. <g>
I'm fine with prophecies in fiction. I simply want the characters to act in a rational manner. Despite having hundreds of years to think about it, Cassandra seems ill-prepared to deal with the whole situation when it occurs. But that's Cassandra for you.
Wendy(I like to think Duncan called Cassandra after he defeated Ahriman.)("Hey, Cassie, about that whole Kantos thing, you've got some explaining to do...")
Immortals Inc.
immortals_incorporated@cox.net
"Weasels for Eternity"
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 13:20:05 -0400
From: Wendy Tillis <immortals_incorporated@cox.net>
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:_Season_Five_dvd_Commentary:_=A0Prophecy?=
Me:
>>>Nice try. If she was really being a mom cat, she would have brought
>Kantos home and then killed him in front of Duncan<<
Leah:
>They are sentient Immortals. What would that have taught Duncan? It would
>have accomplished nothing, other than to make him wonder if she was some
>kind of show-off.
Hey! You're the one that brought up cats<g>
A mother cat might bring home a harmless mouse for the kittens to bat around, she wouldn't bring home a badger (or a wolverine)(or a weasel) and set it loose among her kittens in hopes they would find a way to kill it before it killed them. If the mouse gets out of line, the mother cat can kill it. Cassandra was, apparently, helpless before Kantos' power. How was she going to save Duncan if things went bad? Or was that just a chance she was willing to take? Getting your Champion killed in a training exercise is bad form, although I suppose there were dozens of "champions in waiting" that she could have turned to if Duncan died fighting Kantos. There are *so* many Highland foundlings born at the winter solstice to choose from, after all. No, it makes no sense for Cassandra to be using Kantos as a training run for Ahriman. The episode only makes sense if you believe that Cassandra is convinced that Kantos is the Evil mentioned in the prophecy.
>>>And why tell Duncan that Kantos was the Evil of the prophesy if he
>wasn't? Once Kantos is dead, Duncan thinks the prophecy is "fulfilled"
>..which would, I should think, make him less willing to believe that
>Ahriman is really the Evil prophesied.<<
>
>Ah, but it's canonical that he *did* (he even 'saw' and heard Cassandra's
>warning in the episode), so it worked.
But that's after the fact to the events of "Prophecy". We know all kinds of things that Duncan doesn't know as of the end of "Prophecy". When judging Cassandra's action in "Prophecy" and how well they *might* turn out, one can only use what the characters knew at that moment. *If* Cassandra's purpose was to show Duncan that prophecies are real, then letting him think Kantos was the real opponent *could* have made him more, not less, skeptical when Ahriman arrived in Paris. He might have thought "Wait, I already did this!" or he might have thought "If Cassandra was wrong about Kantos, maybe she's wrong about the whole prophecy" or he might have thought "This prophecy crap is too far out, I'm going to EuroDisney World". ..none of which would have helped him prepare for the final battle.
Leah:
>I disagree with your interpretation of what Duncan's 'lesson' was, from
>defeating Kantos. He didn't learn "ignore the crazy shit and simply cut
>his head off." He learned to think beyond the box of Immortal combat and
>Rules of the Game, *in order to do battle with adversaries that use
>illusion and mental attack.* This fits the bill with Ahriman, perfectly.
How is sticking wax in his ears thinking outside the box or the Rules? Is it different than using two swords instead of one? Different than stabbing up and back while appearing to kneel for the final blow? Different than using a bitch in heat to defeat an adversary with male dogs? Different than cutting Kalas' throat with a piece of glass or chopping Xavier's hand off? Kantos used his voice as a weapon....Duncan found a way to neutralize that weapon. He did it with a simple bit of wax ...something that shouldn't have required a time-traveling episode to think of. Once the extraneous "noise" was removed, Duncan treated Kantos like any other Immortal (which is all he was). Of course one could argue that Duncan's entire life as we saw it was preparation for fighting Ahriman..but I defy anyone to claim that that was the TPTB's plan from Day One.
>>>If anything was preparation for facing Ahriman, it was the Holy Hot Tub
>..and that was *Methos* not Cassandra's doing.<<
>
>No relation. The 'Holy Hot Tub' was a quick fix that Methos had found at
>some point in his distant past, for healing an Immortal with the specific
>problem of a Dark Quickening.
No relation? No relation? Let's see...while in the HHT, Duncan faces a shadow enemy - an illusion - and comes to realize that good and evil are two halves of everyone. The fight takes place in Duncan's mind and it is in Duncan's mind where the victory is won. When facing Ahriman - a shadow enemy - an illusion- Duncan comes to realize that everyone is both good and evil. Evil is defeated when you accept that fact and choose good. It all takes place in Duncan's mind and that is where the victory is won. Gee...seems like his experience in the HHT might have given him *some* insight into fighting Ahriman.
>>>Gillian and (especially) Donna have been known to indulge in a small bit
>of revisionist history.<<
>
>*Shrug* If it comes down to whether or not you choose believe what the
>writers have actually said, that's your option.
It's only that the writers have said many things over a long period of time.
>>>But Cassandra doesn't figure into the episodes with Ahriman - she isn't
>in them. Yes, Duncan finds himself the subject of another prophecy but it
>isn't delivered by Cassandra. And the prophecy from "Prophecy" must be
>stretched - or rather edited- to fit the new situation.<<
>
>Go back and watch the episode. Duncan actually *hears* Cassandra deliver
>the Prophecy in the soundtrack, at one point, in Tracy's voice.
Yes, he hears her voice. But she isn't in the episode. I can't believe that anyone watching AAA would think that Cassandra was an integral part. When TPTB decided to make Duncan the Millennial Champion of Zoroastrianism (an odd turn of events for a Scot, you have to agree)(Or maybe you don't), they came up with a new "prophecy" - the one Professor Landry found. Hearing the new prophecy reminded Duncan of Cassandra's prophecy -which he "hears" so that the audience who may not have watched "Prophecy" will hear it too. I don't see how that bit of reused tape counts as a third appearance nor do I think it counts to increase her importance as a "teacher" leading Duncan toward this final battle of Good and Evil.
>>>Cassandra struck me as moderately useless in "Prophecy and almost
>completely useless in CaH/Rev. I don't think she was "playing" at being
>the damsel in distress, I think she *was* the damsel in distress.
>Wendy(Why didn't she just shoot Kantos and take his head?)<<
>Why, indeed? Because it would serve no purpose. She needed Duncan to learn
>by the experience. And killing him somewhere off the episode would teach
>him nothing.
This assumes that Cassandra knew in "Prophecy" that the real enemy was Ahriman. I don't believe that. The writers *may* have been planning to have the prophecy really mean Ahriman but I don't believe that they wrote Cassandra as if she knew that. We were supposed to believe, as Cassandra did, that Kantos was the Big Bad. Where, in "Prophecy", is there any indication that Cassandra is faking her belief that Kantos is the Evil Voice of the prophecy? *If* the writers intended us to see that Cassandra was faking her belief that Kantos was the Evil Voice of the prophecy...if they intended us to see that she knew of some greater challenge yet to come, I'd say they failed pretty miserably. After the fact, one can go back and argue that she must have known more than she said (or else she comes off as a pretty sad excuse for a prophet<g>) but nothing in the episode itself suggests that.
>You are also forgetting that Kantos believed in the Prophecy
>as much as Cassandra did, and was hunting and searching for her not to
>kill her, but with the express aim of killing DUNCAN.
So? Kantos was hunting Duncan..and? Does that mean he wouldn't have fought Cassandra if she had challenged him? That he wouldn't have been dead if Cassandra had shot him and then taken his head? Or are you suggesting that Fate would have conspired to prevent Cassandra from killing Kantos no matter what she tried? (That would have been a fun episode...Cassandra as Wiley Coyote and Kantos as the Roadrunner.)(Only Farscape could get away with that) The trouble with seeing Kantos as a training ground for Ahriman is that, in the end, Kantos is just an Immortal. He had a cool new power but he was just as dead once you chopped his head off. Garrick had a cool power too and Duncan whacked him. Was Garrick also training for Ahriman? Lots of Immortals have had tricks but, in the end, the solution is always to chop their heads off. The solution to Ahriman was to *not* chop his head off. ..which is why I maintain that the inner battle he fought in "Deliverance" is a much better "teachin!
g point" than his defeat of Kantos.
>>>Belief in prophecy can make you stupid.)<<
>
>In this case, not believing would have made Duncan dead.
Would it? If Duncan was fated to fight Ahriman, then Kantos couldn't have killed him.
I don't think you can have it both ways. Either Cassandra's prophecy related to Kantos, and nothing Cassandra could do would have prevented their meeting, or else her prophecy related to Ahriman and Kantos was never any threat to Duncan. And, if Duncan is the Millennial Champion of Zoroastrianism, then he was in no danger from Ahriman either because the Champion of Light always wins. Good and Evil must battle but Good must win.
Wendy (Of course Duncan had to win because he was the star.)(Talk about predestined outcome!)
Immortals Inc.
immortals_incorporated@cox.net
"Weasels for Eternity"
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 14:57:15 -0400
From: kageorge <kageorge@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Season Five dvd Commentary: Prophecy
Wendy Tillis wrote:
>MacG:
>
>
>>Therefore, it wasn't up to Cassandra to be the one to take on Kantos,
>>only the Highland... blah, blah, blah, and exactly how a successful
>>challenge might be achieved was a mystery. Again, I am no fan of
>>Cassandra, I just think her actions were understandable within the
>>context of the reality which had been constructed.
>>
>>
>
>But even those who believe in prophecies should be able to comprehend that they are dicey to interpret. Witness the fact that Cassandra apparently was all wrong about Kantos. She admits that she sees only fragments. There is such a thing as saying "trust God (or Prophecy) and pass the ammunition." One can believe in prophecy and work to either thwart it or to help it along. After all, if it *is* Duncan who is destined to fight Kantos, then Cassandra can't change it. If, OTOH, she did kill Kantos, she would have proven that her interpretation of the prophecy was wrong and she could have gone back and rethought the whole matter.
>
My only argument with that is that, assuming Cassandra believed the
prophecy and that Kantos was the evil one and Duncan was the Winter
Soltice Guy, then she would have thought that an attempt by her to
preemptively kill Kantos could have had terrible consequences. All she
could do was to assist Duncan, trying to make sure he was the victor in
what (to her mind) was an inevitable battle. I totally agree with you
that she exhibited a bizarre ineptitude in her efforts to help. She
wanted him to figure out what the reference to the Child was, but the
manner in which she went about it was dumb and dangerous.
> I'm fine with prophecies in fiction. I simply want the characters to
> act in a rational manner. Despite having hundreds of years to think
> about it, Cassandra seems ill-prepared to deal with the whole
> situation when it occurs. But that's Cassandra for you.
With that, I have to agree.
MacG
------------------------------
End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 1 Sep 2004 to 2 Sep 2004 (#2004-167)
*************************************************************