HIGHLA-L Digest - 22 Jun 2004 to 23 Jun 2004 (#2004-117)
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Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:00:08 -0400
There are 8 messages totalling 256 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Chivalry (5)
2. YKYBWTMHLW....
3. Amanda (2)
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Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 09:47:22 -0400
From: Wendy Tillis <immortals_incorporated@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Chivalry
Susan wrote:
>>Also Chivalry was one of my favorite episodes. I found that christen
>>'s attitude made sense she was going to be that age forever. Yet in
>>the one where the girl was killed to keep her young forever, Duncan
>>seemed to be against it. I could never understand that.
Sandy:
>The guy (can't remember his name) killed the girl to make her immortal
>without first telling her. It should have been *her* choice, with full
>knowledge of the good and the bad of immortality. Or she should have been
>left alone (not killed) to let nature take its course. We learned in
>"Endgame" (if you want to consider the movies) that Duncan had been there &
>done that. It wasn't pretty.
I don't think Duncan would have accepted the option of telling Claudia what might be and letting her decide. Duncan was all for letting things take their course. He preferred to let pre-Immortals live their lives and face immortality if and when it happened. That allowed them the longest possible "normal" life before having to face the Game.
It would have been interesting to see an episode where the pre-Immortal did find out what he/she was and had to face the decision of what do do. Do you kill yourself now? Wait until some "perfect" age and do it? Let fate take its course and maybe not become Immortal until you're 65 and less able to survive the Game? Let fate play out and maybe *never* become Immortal? Or do you try and live extra carefully to assure that you won't become Immortal? Rather than force someone to decide these things for themself - with no assurance that there is a "right" answer - Duncan just waited and watched and was ready to step in *if* the worst (best) happened.
Susan:
>>I mean if I was 50 when it happened and I then found out I could have been
>>young forever, I certainly would be pissed off. Just my thoughts
Sandy:
>But remember.. staying young forever isn't all there is to being an
>immortal. The Game is a major part of it. Having other immortals come
>after you to take your head. You must continue to fight (and win) to
>live. You have to cut off people's heads... or they'll cut yours
>off. Living forever under those circumstances doesn't sound all that great
>to me.
I think that for every person who would have been pissed to discover they had been cheated out of being 25 forever, there would be someone who was pissed that they missed out on 25 more years of the calm, safe life of a mortal. Unless you knew how a person was going to react- and how could you?- it's best to stay out of it.
Again, it would have been an interesting issue to deal with. Kristin wasn't a good example because she was beautiful and "fit" no matter what age she was supposed to have died at. Her self image told her she was "old" based on the era she was born in but, obviously, she wasn't "old" . I would have like to see an episode about a "senior citizen" who becomes Immortal. One whose eyesight isn't what it once was..whose hearing is going. ..whose body is shot to hell. Someone Duncan has been keeping an eye on for 40 years. What does *that* person think about immortality? About Duncan's decision to wait? How do you train that person for the Game?
I sometimes wish that instead of so many evil-immortal-of-the-week episodes, we had gotten a few more that dealt with the bigger questions of being Immortal.
Wendy(OTOH, they did spare us the Immortal baby episode)
Immortals Inc.
immortals_incorporated@cox.net
"Weasels for Eternity"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 18:01:31 +0200
From: T'Mar <tmar@sifl.iid.co.za>
Subject: Re: YKYBWTMHLW....
>YKYBWTMHLW....
>You read this article and think, "so Richie's alive and in New York City
>- that should make Marina happy":
Hehe. :)
>Mr. Ryan
>says, remembering his days as a student apartheid protester. 'I'm sure I
>got my arrest ticket and filed it in the book.'"
Hey, he might have met me if he came out here and protested at Wits.
Wits was a hotbed of anti-apartheid-ness in the '80s. (I went there
for both degrees and loved it.)
- Marina.
\\ "You've heard it said that living well is ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// the best revenge? Au contraire - living || R I C H I E >> \\
\\ forever is the best revenge." - Lacroix ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//===============tmar@sifl.iid.co.za===========|| \\
\\=============Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie============//
"What about the fact they thought we were gay?"
"Adds mystery." - Wesley and Angel; "Expecting" (Angel)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 14:09:26 -0400
From: Gregory Mate <gmate@rogers.com>
Subject: Re: Chivalry
Wendy:
> I think that for every person who would have been pissed to discover they had been cheated out of being 25 forever, there would be someone who was pissed that they missed out on 25 more years of the calm, safe life of a mortal.
This argument is only logical if there was some sort of unspoken "agreement" between Immortals that they would not hunt pre-Immortals. If pre-Immortals can be sensed by all Immortals (Duncan, Connor and Amanda come to mind as having this ability), would it not make sense for an evil Immortal to take out any potential future competition? Is the killing of a pre-Immortal as taboo as fighting on Holy Ground? If so, then I can agree with your statement. Otherwise, it would be cruel of Duncan to allow a pre-Immortal to age to a point where his/her physical ability and reflexes would be sub-par.
....Greg....
gmate@rogers.com
1
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Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:27:05 +0100
From: Jette Goldie <jette@blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Amanda
>
> I would define "gigolo" or ....what's the female equivalent?
Gold-digger? Oh heck, let's use gigola!!
Try "courtesan" - it has connotations that *she* controls the
relationship,
at least partly, and her company is as important as her
bed-skills.
Jette
"Work for Peace and remain Fiercely Loving" - Jim Byrnes
jette@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
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Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 17:42:33 -0400
From: Wendy Tillis <immortals_incorporated@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Chivalry
Me::
>> I think that for every person who would have been pissed to discover
>they had been cheated out of being 25 forever, there would be someone who
>was pissed that they missed out on 25 more years of the calm, safe life of
>a mortal.
Greg:
>This argument is only logical if there was some sort of unspoken
>"agreement" between Immortals that they would not hunt pre-Immortals. If
>pre-Immortals can be sensed by all Immortals (Duncan, Connor and Amanda
>come to mind as having this ability), would it not make sense for an evil
>Immortal to take out any potential future competition? Is the killing of
>a pre-Immortal as taboo as fighting on Holy Ground? If so, then I can
>agree with your statement.
We don't see any examples of Immortals killing pre-Immortals to take their heads. If we assume that all Immortals can sense pre-Immortals (and there is nothing to say they can') then we have seen numerous occasion where Immortals passed up the chance to "take out potential competition". Richie crossed paths with many Immortals in the first year he was with Duncan and no one whacked him. Admittedly, a couple (Kern and Piton, for example) wanted to kill him, but it didn't seem to be because he was pre-Immortal . Mostly it was because he was annoying <eg> and it would have hurt Duncan. So far as we know, killing a pre-Immortal (taking his head) doesn't result in a Quickening, so the Immortal gains nothing except a slight lessening of possible future competition. I think one's time would be better spend training and fighting present day threats. Some pre-Immortals might never become immortal at all and most will be easy pickings in the first years after they become Immortal. Why!
not wait until killing them yields some tangible benefit- a Quickening?
>Otherwise, it would be cruel of Duncan to
>allow a pre-Immortal to age to a point where his/her physical ability and
>reflexes would be sub-par.
Only if you believe that a long mortal life is less valuable than a potentially short Immortal one. Who is to say that some people wouldn't prefer 80 years of "normal" life (job, friends, family, peace) and then death (either a true death or becoming Immortal and being whacked soon after) to becoming Immortal at 30, losing your friends, job, family and peace and *still* maybe getting whacked right away? Did Richie have a long adventure-filled Immortal life? No..despite becoming Immortal in his prime. I think Richie would have taken 60 more years as a pre-Immortal over only 4 years as an Immortal. One just doesn't know. And since one doesn't, who gives Duncan (or any other Immortal) the right to decide *for* the pre-Immortal? Further, lots of Immortals were in their 30, 40's and 50's when they first died, many in times when 50 was beyond "prime". They survived, so why assume that a 70 year old modern person couldn't survive as well??
Wendy(Damon Case was over 100 when he died.)(Or so the Watchers Chronicle says)(Born 961, died 1068)(Seems unlikely<eg)
Immortals Inc.
immortals_incorporated@cox.net
"Weasels for Eternity"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 18:37:45 -0700
From: Gregory Mate <gmate@rogers.com>
Subject: Re: Chivalry
Wendy:
> So far as we know, killing a pre-Immortal (taking his head) doesn't
result in a Quickening, so the Immortal gains nothing except a slight
lessening of possible future competition. I think one's time would be
better spend training and fighting present day threats. Some pre-Immortals
might never become immortal at all and most will be easy pickings in the
first years after they become Immortal. Why!
Kill the pre-Immortal (not by beheading). Wait until the pre-Immie
"awakens" and becomes Immortal. Decapitate the new Immortal since s/he is
confused and probably cannot fight that well (if at all). Get the
Quickening. Repeat as necessary. Must be something that keeps even the
most evil ones from doing that.
>Only if you believe that a long mortal life is less valuable than a
>potentially short Immortal one.
Again, it all hinges on whether the pre-Immortal will be left alone by the
evil Immortals. The mortal life could also be short if a paranoid Immortal
were out there ("Do unto others before they do unto you."). Maybe that's
what the Kurgan meant with the words, "It's better to burn out than fade away."
Other than Duncan, Connor (if you took his words of "The boy will need
watching" in a certain context) and Amanda (in Raven), I can't think of
others who could sense pre-Immortals off the top of my head. I doubt that
it's a rare trait, but there is no canonical evidence to support either theory.
>Wendy(Damon Case was over 100 when he died.)(Or so the Watchers Chronicle
>says)(Born 961, died 1068)(Seems unlikely<eg)
That's a Watcher typo. They probably meant 1008. Or else Case was very
spry and youthful for a 107-year-old.
....Greg....
gmate@rogers.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 18:44:16 -0700
From: Gregory Mate <gmate@rogers.com>
Subject: Re: Amanda
>Jette:
>Try "courtesan" - it has connotations that *she* controls the
>relationship,
>at least partly, and her company is as important as her
>bed-skills.
Escort? Service Provider?
Better whore than hoar.
....Greg....
gmate@rogers.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 21:22:42 -0400
From: Sandy Fields <diamonique@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Chivalry
At 09:37 PM 6/23/2004, Gregory Mate wrote:
>Other than Duncan, Connor (if you took his words of "The boy will need
>watching" in a certain context) and Amanda (in Raven), I can't think of
>others who could sense pre-Immortals off the top of my head. I doubt that
>it's a rare trait, but there is no canonical evidence to support either
>theory.
The immie that we were just discussing -- the one who repeatedly tried to
kill Claudia to preserve her talents in her prime. He obviously could
sense a pre-immie.
I'm thinking we saw one or two others also, but I can't put my finger on it.
-- Sandy
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End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 22 Jun 2004 to 23 Jun 2004 (#2004-117)
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