HIGHLA-L Digest - 21 Jun 2004 to 22 Jun 2004 (#2004-116)
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Tue, 22 Jun 2004 22:00:26 -0400
There are 8 messages totalling 571 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. YKYBWTMHLW.... (3)
2. Amanda (2)
3. Season 4 dvds: Reunion
4. Chivalry (2)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 10:52:02 -0700
From: Laura Tarwater <cesium@sfgoth.com>
Subject: YKYBWTMHLW....
YKYBWTMHLW....
You read this article and think, "so Richie's alive and in New York City
- that should make Marina happy":
"'I'd always have a book with me when I got arrested,' said Richard Ryan
on being told that his 1985 rap sheet had fallen out of a book at the
Strand, a store on Broadway in Manhattan where anybody can flip through a
heap of two million volumes. 'Books end up as filing cabinets,' Mr. Ryan
says, remembering his days as a student apartheid protester. 'I'm sure I
got my arrest ticket and filed it in the book.'"
http://online.wsj.com/article_email/article_print/0,,SB108785738519943459-Ihjf4NklaN3np2vZoKIaaeFm5,00.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 09:45:31 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Amanda
macgeorge--
> If you are talking about my posts, I've never thought of Amanda as much of
a
> victim, and certainly not pathetic. To the contrary, she was usually the
> victimizer (although she says she never took from someone who couldn't
> afford it; of course, that is probably self-delusion on her part). My
only
> point was that I didn't see much substantive difference between Duncan's
> occasional liaisons with women who clearly supported him in return for
> (cough!) companionship, and Amanda serving the same function for some
> wealthy man.
Among other things, you said this earlier--
>>>I don't think Amanda was ever ashamed of what
she did, nor did it bother Duncan. She did what she needed to survive.>>>
You--& others--persist in discussing Amanda as doing whatever required to
survive, as though she is forced by circumstances to scrabble her desperate
way through the centuries, trying to keep her head. It just isn't so, per
what we were shown of Amanda in both HLTS & Raven. Survival wasn't her
prime motivation, for one thing, but more importantly I think--the things
she did had nothing to do w/ survival & in fact put her in jeopardy far more
than was necessary.
For instance--Raven showed Amanda stealing from Queen Mary's treasure room
(a nice way to lose one's head), & HLTS showed her reckless crime spree w/
Cory Raines. How, exactly, were those acts required for survival? But,
really _everything_ Amanda did thievery-wise was flamboyant, over the top, &
flagrantly dangerous--even for an Immie (_especially_ for an Immie,
considering some of her chosen Immie partners). She did that stuff for
kicks--not to survive--eschewing relatively "safe" ways to lead a life of
crime. Similarly, her liasons w/ men were often wild & crazy, motivated by
factors other than mere survival. Condemn her or defend her, but I don't
buy "survival" as an excuse for anything she did.
Nina (Amanda could have _survived_ in a nunnery; imagine how different the
Catholic Church would have turned out....)
mac.westie@verizon.net
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 12:52:07 -0700
From: FKMel <sgt_buck_frobisher@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: YKYBWTMHLW....
Oh yeah and I forgot the Animal Cops Detroit officer
that sometimes pops up, last name of MacLeod (not sure
if it's spelled the same way though)
Mel
I thought that too but a different situation...I love
to watch Animal Precinct and Animal Cops on Animal
Planet, and sometimes on Animal Precinct, which is
from New York, they show an investigator named Richard
Ryan.
Mel
=====
The trouble with immortality is that it tends to go on forever-Herb Cain
NickNatpacker,Knightie,Knight of the Cross;Duncan, Tessa and Joe flags-waver, Dueser,Fan of Buffy and Angel's true and undying love for one another
http//:groups.yahoo.com/group/thavisionthing-That Vison thing Angel rpg
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 12:51:09 -0700
From: FKMel <sgt_buck_frobisher@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: YKYBWTMHLW....
I thought that too but a different situation...I love
to watch Animal Precinct and Animal Cops on Animal
Planet, and sometimes on Animal Precinct, which is
from New York, they show an investigator named Richard
Ryan.
Mel
--- Laura Tarwater <cesium@sfgoth.com> wrote:
> YKYBWTMHLW....
> You read this article and think, "so Richie's alive
> and in New York City
> - that should make Marina happy":
>
> "'I'd always have a book with me when I got
> arrested,' said Richard Ryan
> on being told that his 1985 rap sheet had fallen out
> of a book at the
> Strand <snip>
=====
The trouble with immortality is that it tends to go on forever-Herb Cain
NickNatpacker,Knightie,Knight of the Cross;Duncan, Tessa and Joe flags-waver, Dueser,Fan of Buffy and Angel's true and undying love for one another
http//:groups.yahoo.com/group/thavisionthing-That Vison thing Angel rpg
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 16:29:02 -0400
From: kageorge <kageorge@erols.com>
Subject: Season 4 dvds: Reunion
COMMENTARY: Ken Gord talks about how terrific Vancouver was to film in,
because it provided such a huge variety of potential film sites that could
be adapted to all the needs of time and country and atmosphere (the comments
are interspersed with a wide variety of examples in short episode clips).
David Abramowitz says that this episode made Amanda more human. There is
nothing on earth stronger than a woman protecting her child, so this gave
Amanda a great opportunity to play something other than the smiling,
happy-go-lucky thief. It was also one of the few things that could pit
Amanda against MacLeod. Elizabeth Gracen was a wonderful actress and there
was great chemistry and heat generated between Elizabeth and Adrian. With
the character of Anne, they tried to create chemistry, but it just wasn't
there. They managed great heat with Neferiri and Amanda and Cassandra. He
says the love scene between Duncan and Cassandra went on and on until she
said, "Cut! If this goes any further I'm going to need birth control." David
says that's what you want to happen between the actors, but it just didn't
happen with Anne. [NOTE: I think they've beaten the "no chemistry, but she
was a really great actress and nice person" horse into the ground.]
OUTTAKES: None
THE EPISODE: We initially get a Joe Dawson voiceover giving us Duncan and
Richie's history with the child-Immortal Kenny, who looks ten years old, but
who has survived for 800 years by pretending helplessness, then whacking his
"protectors".
Then in the present we see Kenny running along an alley, grasping a bloody
arm as he is followed by a sinister-looking man in a pea coat. He runs to
the hospital, screaming for help and running into Anne Lindsay. The man
follows, arousing Anne's suspicions, but Kenny denies knowing him before the
man leaves. When Kenny's arm miraculously heals, Anne realizes Kenny is an
Immortal like Duncan, and takes him to the hospital chapel so he will be
safe, and calls Duncan.
Duncan is not at all pleased to see Kenny, and Anne is somewhat mystified at
the hostility between them. Duncan says the most he'll do is keep him alive
long enough to get him to the airport, but Kenny insists he's not going
anywhere with Duncan. "Fine!" Duncan replies with a hard smile. "Have it
your way," and leaves, only to spot the other Immortal still lurking in the
hallways.
Turns out they have a history, and we get a flashback to the South Pacific
in 1778, where Duncan is serving as the pilot of a merchant ship of which
the Immortal - Terrence Kinkaid - is captain. They are running low on water
and food and have stopped at a barren island to re-provision, if possible.
But the island has nothing on it, and even the water is not fit to drink.
The crew is ready to mutiny because they will have to continue on half
rations, but Kincaid refuses to turn back towards China because it would put
him behind schedule and cost him money. Duncan tries to reason with both the
crew and with Kincaid, trying to prevent violence, but Kincaid shoots and
kills one of the protesting crewmen as an example to the others.
By now, however, the crew, however, is in full mutiny. They overcome Kincaid
and are ready to kill him by beheading him when MacLeod intervenes, urging
them to simply maroon Kincaid on the island instead. Kincaid begs them not
to leave him, and as they row away, Kincaid hysterically screams Duncan's
name.
Back in the hospital, Anne catches up to Duncan in the hallway, begging him
to help Kenny since, after all, he's only a child. Duncan tells Anne that he
's no child, he's 800 years old, but Kincaid is waiting at the end of the
hall and Duncan asks Kenny to choose, "So what's it going to be, Kenny? Him
or me?" Kenny chooses the obvious lesser of two evils, at least for the
moment.
Duncan takes Kenny to the loft, and as they go up in the elevator, they feel
another Immortal. Kenny gets nervous, accusing Duncan of setting him up, but
Duncan grimly tells him to relax, that it's a friend, and "she's not like
that."
"We're all like that MacLeod. You're a fool if you don't know it!"
It's Amanda, and to MacLeod's astonishment, Amanda and Kenny gleefully throw
themselves in each other's arms. Later, as Amanda is bubbling with joy over
her reunion with her long-lost student, Duncan is desultorily pushing his
spaghetti around on his plate, looking very unhappy. "It's like having a
real family," Amanda sighs happily, but Duncan grimly picks up his plate and
leaves the table.
We get a flashback to the first time Amanda met Kenny [NOTE: He's in a bad
wig and uses a bad English accent.], in England in 1182, when Kenny's
adoptive parents were brutalized and killed by the local Norman squire's
men. Kenny was also killed, but revived and is weeping in the hut with his
parents' bodies when Amanda [NOTE: She's in a good wig, but also uses a bad
English accent.] finds him. Amanda is very nurturing and tender, cleaning
him up and telling him about Immortality. She tells him that she has
survived by being quick and using her head, and that he'll find a way to
survive. "We use the weapons we have," she says, and tells him his best
weapon is his innocence, showing him his own young face in a mirror.
A year later they are still together, making a living by stealing from
wayfarers, but Amanda is captured and accused of thievery. Once the men hang
her, they spot Kenny watching and he runs away.
Back in the present, Amanda is gently stroking a sleeping Kenny's forehead,
telling MacLeod that Kenny had been running ever since they had gotten
separated. Duncan is unmoved by the sob story, but Amanda moves in, pulling
off his robe seductively and saying, "You know how I've never asked you for
anything?" Duncan gives her a dubious look. "Can't he just stay with us for
a little while?" He protests, but she pleads and pets and kisses him and
Easily!Manipulated!Duncan gives in. Even so, he keeps the katana right by
the bed.
We get a few more repeat scenes from The Lamb showing Kenny's true evil
nature. Duncan wakes up, evidently from dreaming about Kenny taking his
head. Amanda wants to talk, though, and a sleepy Duncan eventually,
reluctantly agrees. Amanda, whispering to keep from waking Kenny, asks a
sleepy Duncan if he ever thought of her as a nurturing person.
Duncan wakes up a little more at her question, looks up at her, clearly
carefully considering his words. He takes a big breath and finally says,
"Definitely! Is that it?" he tries to turn over to go back to sleep.
"No!" Amanda protests. "I want you to be honest, okay?
"How honest?" Duncan asks warily, and Amanda insists that he not worry about
hurting her feelings.
"Okay," he slowly agrees. "Then, no. Nurturing is not the first thing that
comes to mind when I think of you."
Amanda looks unhappy and hurt. "Well, I don't think you know me very well,"
she pouts.
Duncan tells her she's beautiful, smart and a lot of fun. "Nurturing's in
there," he says. "It's just not high on the list." Then Amanda asks if he
thinks she would have made a good mother, and he definitely tells her,
"Absolutely," that she would have made a wonderful mother, and he kisses and
cuddles her in comfort.
The next day, Kenny and Amanda are hauling groceries back to the loft, with
Kenny protesting that he won't be able to stay because MacLeod hates him,
but Amanda assures him they won't be parted again. Then Kenny leaves her
carrying all the groceries and goes off on some mysterious errand.
Kincaid is at the docks, unloading some cargo, when MacLeod finds him.
Kincaid derides Duncan for being too noble to take Kenny's head. Then
Kincaid berates him for what happened back in 1788. When Duncan says at
least he gave him his life, Kincade says, "No, MacLeod, you gave me death! A
thousand times over, for one hundred years. A Living. Dying. Hell. Of
unending thirst and unbearable hunger. Do you know what hell is like,
MacLeod? To live on rats, snakes, and when they're all gone, flies. And when
everything is dead, you starve to death. Again, and again, and again!"
Kincaid is determined to fight, but they are interrupted by other
dockworkers. Duncan warns Kincaid to stay away and stay alive. As Duncan is
leaving, he feels another Immortal and is convinced it's Kenny, but nobody
appears. Then Kincaid feels another Immortal, and he thinks it's MacLeod,
but it's Kenny, who offers to help him "get MacLeod."
Duncan goes back to the loft, where Amanda is worrying about Kenny, who
arrives momentarily with Anne Lindsay. Duncan introduces Anne to Amanda in
an extremely uncomfortable moment. Duncan, still convinced Kenny is up to no
good, forces him to take a walk, leaving Anne and Amanda alone. Down in the
dojo, with Kenny screams in protest that Duncan stay away from him. "You
kill me, she'll kill you!" he finally says, malevolently. "I'm her son. You'
re just some guy she screws!"
But Duncan is only interested in knowing what Kenny was doing down at the
docks. "I don't know what you're up to," he says with a cold smile, "but I'm
through treating you like a little kid. You come after me and I'll kill
you."
Kenny says Duncan is just like everyone else, looking for an excuse to kill
him, and the second Duncan turns his back on him, Kenny says, he'll take his
head, and then Kenny runs out of the dojo.
In the meantime, Anne and Amanda are having an initially awkward
conversation, but they end up talking about Kenny, and in a maternal moment,
Amanda eventually asks Anne if she could touch her belly. She asks Anne what
it's like, and whether she's scared. When Anne confesses her fears about
being able to do all that's required to both be a mother and do her job,
Amanda reassures her, and the two women seem to quickly develop a rapport.
That night Amanda gets frantic that Kenny has been out all night and hasn't
returned, but Duncan scoffs at her concerns. Then Kenny calls in a panic
that Kincaid is after him down by the docks, and tells Amanda that he
apologizes to Duncan, that he should have trusted him, and that he's scared.
Amanda buys the story and by dawn, she is at the docks looking for Kenny.
She feels another Immortal, turns around, and it's Duncan who has followed
her, protesting that he can't believe she's been taken in by Kenny, that he'
s not a kid, he's a con man, that he uses people. But Amanda doesn't want to
hear it. "Whatever he is," she says, "I helped make him." Then they hear
Kenny cry for help.
She takes off, and Duncan goes with her, protesting all the way. When they
feel another Immortal, Duncan warns her to be careful. "And while you're at
it, watch my back, too," he adds with a frustrated sigh as they split up to
look for Kenny and/or Kincaid.
Duncan finds Kincaid waiting in an open warehouse space, and they fight.
Kenny watches from an overhead catwalk, and as Duncan is maneuvered towards
a steam vent, Kenny opens the valve, and steam erupts into Duncan's face,
burning and blinding him. But Amanda witnessed what Kenny did.
"You set him up," she observes coldly, but Kenny protests that Kincaid made
him do it.
In the meantime, Duncan is swinging wildly, trying to defend himself when he
can't see. Kincaid stops to gloat (don't they all?), and says his only
regret is that MacLeod will only die once, and deliberately moves around and
slices Duncan deeply across the back.
Amanda asks Kenny why, and Kenny says he hasn't lived as long as he did by
trusting anyone, except for Amanda. Amanda protests that Duncan would have
helped him.
Kincaid continues to torment and cut MacLeod at will, this time on the leg,
saying he wants him to know what it is like to die slowly.
Kenny cold reminds Amanda that they can't interfere in the fight anyway, and
they both turn to watch as Kincaid moves in for the kill, but this time
Duncan knows he's there (he heals fast), guts him, whispers, "See ya!"
harshly, and takes Kincaid's head.
Amanda watches the powerful, destructive Quickening with a fascinated,
almost sexual, lustful expression - at least until she realizes that Kenny
has handcuffed her to the valve. Amanda shouts for Kenny to take off the
cuffs, but he just says he has business to attend to, and in a bizarrely
creepy pseudo-sexual moment, moves in to kiss Amanda on the lips. Kenny gets
to the lower floor just as the Quickening is finally over, leaving Duncan in
a trembling and helpless heap.
"The bigger they are," Kenny announces, "the harder they fall." He raises
his sword to take Duncan's head.
"Do it and you're next." Kenny turns to see Amanda throw the cuffs to the
ground. "That's kid stuff," she says derisively.
"You wouldn't!" Kenny protests.
"Try me."
"But I'm just a boy!"
"Like hell," Amanda whispers bitterly, and tells Kenny if he kills Duncan,
she will kill him in return.
As Kenny finally turns and runs away, Duncan struggles to his feet, leaning
heavily on Amanda. "Thanks!" he gasps.
She sadly admits that he was right about Kenny. "I'm sorry," he responds,
and kisses her forehead.
Back at the loft, Amanda is primping in front of a mirror when Duncan moves
up seductively behind, nuzzling her neck. She warns him not to start
something he can't finish, and he pulls off his shirt and wraps it around
her, pulling her towards the bed, but they are interrupted by Anne's
unexpected arrival as she throws up the gate to the elevator.
Duncan is flustered, holding his shirt in front of his naked chest as both
women grin at him, then saunter off arm in arm.
MY COMMENTS: I can't say I liked this episode overall because I found Kenny
an unlikely and creepy character, but I really liked a number of moments in
it. In general, Petulant!Duncan is fun to watch, and the whispered bed scene
about Amanda's nurturing capacities was really charming and well played,
showing the core of the nature of their relationship. In general, Duncan
tells Amanda what she wants to hear (and vice versa), but in the clutches,
they can be honest with each other because they genuinely care about each
other.
I thought Kincaid was a good villain, and his description of his years of
living death on the island was chilling, and a benchmark for how truly awful
being Immortal can be.
The final confrontation between Amanda and Kenny, and her realization of
what Kenny had become, was well played and good drama, and I enjoyed the
fact that this time it was Amanda saving Duncan's butt.
One interesting aspect of the story was the way both Amanda and Kenny
responded to witnessing the Quickening. There was no question that there
were distinct sexual overtones going on, and when you add in that creepy
kiss at the end, it adds a whole new layer onto Kenny's character
(shudder!).
And that last scene, with Anne and Amanda (Anne finally had some chemistry
going with *someone*) with Duncan looking exposed, nervous and appalled that
his two ex-lovers had become best buds, was charming.
MacGeorge
NOTE: I've added screen captures to all the episode commentaries, available
at:
http://www.wordsmiths.net/MacGeorge/episodes/indexframeset.htm
The html version of this one is at:
http://www.wordsmiths.net/MacGeorge/episodes/Season4/Reunion.htm
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 16:55:36 -0400
From: kageorge <kageorge@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Amanda
From: "MacWestie" <mac.westie@verizon.net>
> You--& others--persist in discussing Amanda as doing whatever required to
> survive, as though she is forced by circumstances to scrabble her
desperate
> way through the centuries, trying to keep her head. It just isn't so, per
> what we were shown of Amanda in both HLTS & Raven. Survival wasn't her
> prime motivation, for one thing, but more importantly I think--the things
> she did had nothing to do w/ survival & in fact put her in jeopardy far
more
> than was necessary.
This all may actually be more semantics than substance, since I agree that
Amanda enjoys her thievery. I also am of the opinion, however, that she
learned very early on that a) She was good at theft and it *had* made the
difference between survival and death at some critical moments in her
pre-Immortal life; and b) She looked at the then-available alternatives to
make money and found them either distasteful, or that such alternatives
would provide marginal survival, at best. So, from her perspective,
thievery was her skill and allowed her an alternative to entering a nunnery,
or whoring, or begging, or scrabbling out a living by acquiring some other
manual skill like weaving or midwifery or... whatever. It also provided
independence (and for an Immortal that becomes more important than for most)
in a society where women were inherently dependent, and she may very well
have thought of that as tantamount to survival - literally and figuratively.
However her career in crime began, ultimately it became an integral part of
her identity. It not only provided her with sustenance and independence, it
provided her with pride in her skills, and an ongoing source of thrill (to
which she is clearly addicted). I'm not trying to excuse her behavior. She
obviously knew it was against the law, and that was part of the appeal - to
flaunt authority. So, whether you classify that set of facts, issues,
history, emotional context... whatever, as being "forced by circumstances to
scrabble her desperate way through the centuries", or simply use that
information to try to reach an understanding of her compulsions, is up to
the individual.
I think *she* thought of it as a means of survival, just as Duncan used his
skills as a swordsman to hire out as bodyguard or mercenary or serial
revolutionary, to make his way through the world. He had the wherewithall
to eventually expand those skills, whereas Amanda did not. Amanda is
portrayed as shallow, compulsive, impulsive, and self-centered (until
sometime during "Raven" when she began to change, although she says in FUOT
that Duncan has changed her, has made her a better person).
Maybe Amanda is "smart" in a way that provided a distinct set of skills, but
she wasn't truly "intelligent" enough to expand beyond those skills as
quickly as Duncan expanded beyond being a sword-for-hire.
Anyway, she is not easy to categorize, and that's a *good* thing. <g>
MacGeorge
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 21:20:14 -0400
From: Susan Drake <sueamanda@alltel.net>
Subject: Chivalry
http://www.celticmusicnews.com/
my son just launched this new site a lot of celtic stuff on it. check
it out
Also Chivalry was one of my favorite episodes. I found that christen
's attitude made sense she was going to be that age forever. Yet in
the one where the girl was killed to keep her young forever, Duncan
seemed to be against it. I could never understand that. I mean if I
was 50 when it happened and I then found out I could have been young
forever, I certainly would be pissed off. Just my thoughts
Sueamanda Keeper of the cassandra outline
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 21:34:58 -0400
From: Sandy Fields <diamonique@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Chivalry
At 09:20 PM 6/22/2004, Susan Drake wrote:
>http://www.celticmusicnews.com/
>
>my son just launched this new site a lot of celtic stuff on it. check
>it out
>
>Also Chivalry was one of my favorite episodes. I found that christen
>'s attitude made sense she was going to be that age forever. Yet in
>the one where the girl was killed to keep her young forever, Duncan
>seemed to be against it. I could never understand that.
I can think of a reason why Duncan didn't like that.
The guy (can't remember his name) killed the girl to make her immortal
without first telling her. It should have been *her* choice, with full
knowledge of the good and the bad of immortality. Or she should have been
left alone (not killed) to let nature take its course. We learned in
"Endgame" (if you want to consider the movies) that Duncan had been there &
done that. It wasn't pretty.
>I mean if I was 50 when it happened and I then found out I could have been
>young
>forever, I certainly would be pissed off. Just my thoughts
But remember.. staying young forever isn't all there is to being an
immortal. The Game is a major part of it. Having other immortals come
after you to take your head. You must continue to fight (and win) to
live. You have to cut off people's heads... or they'll cut yours
off. Living forever under those circumstances doesn't sound all that great
to me.
-- Sandy
------------------------------
End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 21 Jun 2004 to 22 Jun 2004 (#2004-116)
***************************************************************