HIGHLA-L Digest - 20 Jun 2004 to 21 Jun 2004 (#2004-115)
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Mon, 21 Jun 2004 22:00:02 -0400
There are 10 messages totalling 440 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Amanda (7)
2. so...lets make up those missing eps ourselves... (3)
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Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 16:26:06 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Amanda
macgeorge--
> I'm just trying to point out that there is very little difference between
> Duncan attaching himself to a wealthy woman he doesn't love, and letting
her
> support him in exchange for sexual favors and companionship, and Amanda
> serving the same needs for a wealthy man she doesn't love.
Except Amanda would soon steal the guy blind & sneak off in the night, while
DM would (pathological Kristin aside) eventually leave the lady w/ a smile
on her lips. It's a pretty big difference that flows from their respective
motives as well as moral code.
> I don't think Amanda was ever ashamed of what
> she did, nor did it bother Duncan. She did what she needed to survive.
Bah--Amanda did what she liked! FUN, not survival, was her chief concern.
If she just wanted to survive, she wouldn't have done any of the crazy stuff
we saw her revel in over the centuries. She was condemned by her desperate
origins to always want more; she made an art form of the getting of it, &
the more outlandish, daring, & adrenaline-pumping the method, the better.
Nina
mac.westie@verizon.net
> MacG
>
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 23:16:09 -0400
From: Wendy Tillis <immortals_incorporated@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Amanda
Dianne wrote:
>Consider in this debate Duncan's feelings on the subject, which were hinted
>at in the episode Avenging Angel from first season. When Tessa has a fit
>about Elaine's call girl profession, he defends her and gives Tessa a look
>of resignation. He offers words of kindness, not condemnation to Elaine
>about moving on and reinventing herself, and that what she's done as a call
>girl wasn't so bad/ doesn't matter in the long run. I think he was
>offering this advice from the point of view of someone who had indeed walked a mile
>in her shoes. And I think she had the vague impression of that too when
>she commented that it sounded like he was speaking from experience.
>
>You do what you have to do to survive. Isn't that what the game is all
>about?
Interesting interpretation..one I can't remember anyone suggesting before. I don't happen to buy it, but interesting all the same. I think one can have a sympathetic understanding if the forces that might drive a woman (or man) to prostitution without having been a prostitute. In Duncan's long life, he has seen people do some pretty nasty things to each other. Getting paid for sex has to rank fairly low on the list. Duncan was disappointed that Tessa was being so judgmental toward an old friend, that Tessa wasn't stopping to think of what might have lead Elaine to take the path she did. Duncan saw that Tessa's "I'd rather starve than be a whore" attitude neglected to take into account that she (Tessa) had never actually been faced with the choice. He may also have been thinking that life is too short to throw away a friend just because you disapprove of their profession.None of this requires Duncan to have ever been a call-boy.
As for the discussion about moving on, Duncan has adequate experience in that aspect of Immortal life to offer advise- again without ever having been a male prostitute. Immortals have to learn to move on...to reinvent themselves... it's a fact of life. He was trying to tell Elaine that being a whore today doesn't mean you have to be a whore tomorrow..any more than Duncan's being, for example, a soldier in 1812 meant he had to be a soldier in 2000. *That*, I would argue, is the experience from which Duncan was speaking.
Wendy(I never much liked Elaine.)(But it had nothing to do with her profession)
Immortals Inc.
immortals_incorporated@cox.net
"Weasels for Eternity"
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 23:01:37 -0500
From: Kamil <kamil@slashcity.com>
Subject: Re: Amanda
<Nina>
> Except Amanda would soon steal the guy blind & sneak off in
> the night, while DM would (pathological Kristin aside)
> eventually leave the lady w/ a smile on her lips. It's a
> pretty big difference that flows from their respective
> motives as well as moral code.
<Kamil>
So what you're saying is that your intentions don't matter so much as
long as the other person isn't troubled by what you're doing? That in
these sorts of cases the ends pretty much do justify the means? That as
long as you leave 'em smiling it's alright?
Huh.
<Nina>
> Bah--Amanda did what she liked!
<Kamil>
I thought part of your reasoning for Duncan's not being a gigolo was
that he liked what (and who) he was doing, was having fun, and that was
what made it different? Or did I misunderstand something?
<Nina>
<snippety> she made an art form of the getting of it,
> & the more outlandish, daring, & adrenaline-pumping the
> method, the better.
<Kamil>
True, but Duncan seemed to kinda like the adrenaline-pumping bits
himself. He surely seemed psyched by it all in TCoSA after all. And
yeah, I'm sure sticking it to whatzhisname was part of the thrill, but
not all of it. <g>
--
Kamil
"Most of us can operate by shorthand now: "Cassandra. Victim. Finger
nails. Justified. Child seducer. Get over it. Bitch." What once took
weeks of carefully crafted discussion and debate reduced to 11 words."
Wendy
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 06:41:44 -0500
From: Ugol Srs <drugol@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Amanda
Wendy Tillis wrote:
> One of the
> things that always bugged me about Amanda was her lack of
> growth in 1200 years. She was a thief and user in 850, she
> was the same in 2000. Did we ever see her with a job that
> didn't entail lying/swindling/thieving/hanging on some guy?
This might have more to do with Amanda's lack of opportunity than her lack
of growth. In flashbacks, we've seen Duncan as soldier, sailor, bodyguard,
etc. All of these professions (and many more) were basically closed to
women. In addition, her need to keep moving from one place to another
(before people noticed that she was not aging) would have made it difficult
to create the kind of legitimate background that was much more essential for
a "respectable" woman than for a "respectable" man.
Donna U.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 14:27:13 -0400
From: "Janine R. Shahinian" <ja9shahinian@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: so...lets make up those missing eps ourselves...
on 6/19/04 3:20 PM, Sandy Fields at diamonique@comcast.net wrote:
> At 11:00 AM 6/19/2004, Nancy C wrote:
>> i think its more than reasonable that we be allowed to fill in what's
>> missing, after all, that's what fan lists are for...um..so..that missing
>> time between
>> the first and second ep, is anyone up to doing any creative writing? does
>> anyone even have the energy left to be creative about HL anymore? is there
>> already an archive where there are 25 versions of this missing time posted?
>
> I don't know where any archives can be found. I'm sure someone here would
> know. But I recall that Sandra McDonald (is that the right name?) wrote a
> second ep that I really enjoyed. It fit just right. Sandra was very good
> with the Richie character, as I recall. I'm blanking on the title of this
> one though. If I think of it I'll post it.
Sandy, I didn't think you read fanfic because it caused you to get confused
with what was canon and what wasn't. Sandra's "Tough Guy" is definitely one
that feels as though we saw it on-screen. For me and many other fans, it
*is* the missing episode.
For Nancy and others who haven't read this classic piece of Highlander
fanfic, it can be found here:
<http://www.galacticfed.com/mcdonald/toughguy.html>
The bulk of Sandra's massive Highlander archive is here:
<http://www.galacticfed.com/mcdonald/>
And if you want to keep up with Sandra and her professional writing career,
go here: <http://home.comcast.net/~sandra1012/>
Janine (feeling nostalgic/ see below)
ja9shahinian@comcast.net
--------------- Forwarded Message ---------------
From: Janine Shahinian, 72557,627
To: highla-l, INTERNET:highla-l@psuvm.psu.edu
Date: Wed, Feb 28, 1996, 11:22 AM
RE: A *Must*-Read for HL Fans!!
I realize the praising of fanfic is rarely done on this list and, frankly,
that's a pity, cos some of the stories which get posted are far and above
some of the stuff which TPTB offer us.
I printed out "Tough Guy" by Sandra McDonald (sandra1012@aol.com) late last
night, thinking I would get around to reading it when I could get to Kinko's
to get it spiral bound, and the next thing I knew, I was up until 2:30 am to
read the whole thing through.
This story rates five stars, two thumbs up... no, wait...
Purely on a level of writing skill, one to ten, it's...what can I say, uh...
off the scale! :)
"Tough Guy" has got to be *the* best, fully-fleshed out, in-depth,
straight-up Highlander, "how the heck did Richie suddenly start living with
Mac and Tessa" story *ever*. Sandra has done an unbelievably fine job of
capturing the three main characters as they were back in season one and
portrays them all in such loving detail that even first-season Richie-haters
will be caught up in this story.
In other words, this is not just a story for current diehard Richie
flagwavers. If I ever thought that Richie's words in COURAGE ("I'd be
dead.") were an exaggeration, I no longer have any doubts after reading
Sandra's chilling depiction of Richie's former life. Overlaid on this
powerfully realistic environment of crime, violence and abuse is a gripping
tale which you won't be able to put down.
We are so fortunate to have Sandra's story added to an already fine
collection of first rate work and it would be a shame for anyone to miss it.
Despite what some of you may think, I hardly know Sandra, as we have only
recently exchanged one email each on a different matter. This posting is
totally unsolicitied and is the result of my absolute admiration for her
work. It's authors like her* who make the rest of us think twice about
posting our own work.
Hold fast.
- Janine
72557.627@compuserve.com
*and Russet McMillan, Marina Bailey, Kevin Robnett, Kellie Matthews-Simmons,
Julia Kosatka, Wendy Milner...... (someone is going to hate me, I
know)...(If I'm missing someone who belongs here, keep in mind that I'm a
relatively new fiction reader who would love recommendations for other
stories.)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 14:41:50 -0400
From: Wendy Tillis <immortals_incorporated@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Amanda
I said::
>> One of the
>> things that always bugged me about Amanda was her lack of
>> growth in 1200 years. She was a thief and user in 850, she
>> was the same in 2000. Did we ever see her with a job that
>> didn't entail lying/swindling/thieving/hanging on some guy?
Donna:
>This might have more to do with Amanda's lack of opportunity than her lack
>of growth. In flashbacks, we've seen Duncan as soldier, sailor, bodyguard,
>etc. All of these professions (and many more) were basically closed to
>women.
It's true that in the early days of her life, few professions would have been open to her and her best bet at a "decent" life might have been as a wife. OTOH, she was a thief and one might have thought that she would have eventually accumulated enough wealth to buy herself better standing. There were times when single women where allowed to hold proper and wealth on their own. Rebecca was certainly living independently when she picked up Amanda.
>In addition, her need to keep moving from one place to another
>(before people noticed that she was not aging) would have made it difficult
>to create the kind of legitimate background that was much more essential
>for a "respectable" woman than for a "respectable" man.
I would think that moving from place to place would have made it *easier* to reinvent herself as "respectable". She could pretend to be anyone she wanted without much fear of ever running into anyone who knew differently. No one in Constaninople would have to know she was a harlot from Lyons, right? She could invent dead husbands or indulgent fathers at will. If she acted like a respectable woman, if she had the money and trappings of a respectable woman, she would have *been* a respectable woman. Every Immortal has to learn to create false identities. Not just papers but a story to go with them. This would be true for men as well as women.
Wendy(Duncan's early relationship with Anne would have gone better if he had bothered to make up a coherent story of his life.)(Instead he never seemed to have ready answers for the basic questions a girlfriend might ask.)
Immortals Inc.
immortals_incorporated@cox.net
"Weasels for Eternity"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 10:11:57 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Amanda
me before--
> > Except Amanda would soon steal the guy blind & sneak off in
> > the night, while DM would (pathological Kristin aside)
> > eventually leave the lady w/ a smile on her lips. It's a
> > pretty big difference that flows from their respective
> > motives as well as moral code.
Kamil--
> So what you're saying is that your intentions don't matter so much as
> long as the other person isn't troubled by what you're doing? That in
> these sorts of cases the ends pretty much do justify the means? That as
> long as you leave 'em smiling it's alright?
Nope. I'm saying intentions (as formed by their very different moral codes)
DO matter. DM's intentions w/ women were usually mutual delight. Amanda's
were usually about her pocketbook, & she carelessly left victms in her wake.
> > Bah--Amanda did what she liked!
> I thought part of your reasoning for Duncan's not being a gigolo was
> that he liked what (and who) he was doing, was having fun, and that was
> what made it different? Or did I misunderstand something?
I was responding to the rather simplistic view of Amanda as a victim just
trying to survive. That might have been the case, say, her 1st 100 years of
immortality, but after that.... W/ her talent for subterfuge & larceny, as
well as the bonuses immortality gave her, over the centuries she would have
had plenty of opportunities to better herself & create a relatively safe
(for an Immie) life--but she never did. She adored taking risks, being
outrageous, living on the edge, etc. & put all that fun stuff far ahead of
mere survival. Amanda did what she liked--consequences be damned--& w/
little regard for her own safety (or others' safety, much less their
feelings). I don't particularly condemn her for that--it was her charm (&
also why a little Amanda went a long way, both w/ DM & the fans, as Raven
proved). But it's silly to paint her as a pathetic victim just doing what
she must to survive.
Nina
mac.westie@verizon.net
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 17:15:13 -0400
From: Sandy Fields <diamonique@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: so...lets make up those missing eps ourselves...
At 02:27 PM 6/21/2004, Janine R. Shahinian wrote:
>Sandy, I didn't think you read fanfic because it caused you to get confused
>with what was canon and what wasn't. Sandra's "Tough Guy" is definitely one
>that feels as though we saw it on-screen. For me and many other fans, it
>*is* the missing episode.
Same here. And you're right... it was that specific fanfic that caused my
confusion. The only other one I read was "Seeds". I liked it... but it
didn't create any confusion since it didn't really fill in anything that
was missing.
Tough Guy, otoh, fit perfectly in the HL canon, and I started including
stuff from the fic into my discussions of 'real' HL. Then I'd stop myself
and have to start over cuz it didn't happen in HL canon. So I stopped
reading fanfic after that one. I think it was a year or so later that
someone recommended "Seeds".
Those are the only 2 that I've ever read.
"Tough Guy" should have been filmed. :-)
-- Sandy
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 18:14:39 -0400
From: kageorge <kageorge@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Amanda
From: "MacWestie" <mac.westie@verizon.net>
(Snip)
> > I thought part of your reasoning for Duncan's not being a gigolo was
> > that he liked what (and who) he was doing, was having fun, and that was
> > what made it different? Or did I misunderstand something?
>
> I was responding to the rather simplistic view of Amanda as a victim just
> trying to survive. That might have been the case, say, her 1st 100 years
of
> immortality, but after that.... W/ her talent for subterfuge & larceny,
as
> well as the bonuses immortality gave her, over the centuries she would
have
> had plenty of opportunities to better herself & create a relatively safe
> (for an Immie) life--but she never did. She adored taking risks, being
> outrageous, living on the edge, etc. & put all that fun stuff far ahead of
> mere survival. Amanda did what she liked--consequences be damned--& w/
> little regard for her own safety (or others' safety, much less their
> feelings). I don't particularly condemn her for that--it was her charm (&
> also why a little Amanda went a long way, both w/ DM & the fans, as Raven
> proved). But it's silly to paint her as a pathetic victim just doing what
> she must to survive.
>
If you are talking about my posts, I've never thought of Amanda as much of a
victim, and certainly not pathetic. To the contrary, she was usually the
victimizer (although she says she never took from someone who couldn't
afford it; of course, that is probably self-delusion on her part). My only
point was that I didn't see much substantive difference between Duncan's
occasional liaisons with women who clearly supported him in return for
(cough!) companionship, and Amanda serving the same function for some
wealthy man.
Duncan does try to leave those he meets happier or better off than he found
them, while that isn't particularly high on Amanda's agenda. Duncan also
was only seen with women he clealry had reason to enjoy bedding, regardless
of the compensation involved.
While women did not travel as easily, or find viable employment *nearly* as
easily, in the pre-20th Century era, Amanda was beautiful enough and clever
enough to also be able to afford to be a little choosy, at least, and I
would imagine, that Amanda left many of her "victims" with a wistful smile
on their face.
MacG
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 18:42:15 -0400
From: kageorge <kageorge@erols.com>
Subject: Re: so...lets make up those missing eps ourselves...
>
> Sandy, I didn't think you read fanfic because it caused you to get
confused
> with what was canon and what wasn't. Sandra's "Tough Guy" is definitely
one
> that feels as though we saw it on-screen. For me and many other fans, it
> *is* the missing episode.
If you are looking for missing episode-type fiction, "Forging the Blade"
covers the years immediately after Duncan became Immortal, at:
http://www.wordsmiths.net/MacGeorge/Boardwalk/wilderness/we_index.html
MacGeorge
------------------------------
End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 20 Jun 2004 to 21 Jun 2004 (#2004-115)
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