HIGHLA-L Digest - 10 Sep 2003 to 11 Sep 2003 (#2003-210)
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Thu, 11 Sep 2003 22:00:03 -0400
There are 10 messages totalling 529 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Archangel (4)
2. Archangel - yet again (6)
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Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 22:28:47 -0700
From: Gregory Mate <gmate@rogers.com>
Subject: Re: Archangel
Mel:
>I'm not going to say that wasn't an emotional episode,
>because it was....but I'll say again that I don't
>really think it fit the general canon of the series.
>Of course they're Immies, and you have to suspend
>disbelief for that part, but up until then they never
>went into a lot of supernatural stuff. Unless you
>count Haunted, and that couldn've all been in Alec's
>wife's head or something.
The only reason I can fathom that the writers would toss in completely
unrelated new information such as what we saw in Archangel was that at the
time of the writing (and I'm going from memory here so I could be wrong)
the show was going to end with that episode. As such, they wanted to throw
in some new plot hooks for movies (probably thinking Miramax/Dimension
Films here). Rather than end the show with a nice ensemble at the end
(envision Joe's bar with Duncan, Methos, Richie, Amanda, and a few guest
Immortals thrown into the mix having a 404'th or whatever birthday), they
probably wanted to give fans something to look forward to in a new
movie. Archangel was supposed to be the series closer.
>All I can say is that it looks like there aren't a lot
>of decent eps left, except maybe Indescretions and one
>or two more. It's just a shame IMHO that the series
>had to go downhill so badly at the end.
Even though season 5 had its share of "bad" episodes, there were good
episodes (Til Death, Comes a Horseman) and I'll still take the season 5 as
being worthwhile to the Highlander story.
>Mel (why couldn't they maintain the quailty of many of
>the earlier eps?)
Lack of fresh ideas (or good fresh ideas)? Had the budget and demand been
there for a seventh season, could the production team have turned it
around? No one will know for sure.
....Greg....
gmate@rogers.com
He Who Hopes The Canon In Archangel Is Ignored Much Like The Canon Of HL2
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 22:42:58 -0400
From: Wendy Tillis <immortals_incorporated@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Archangel - yet again
I said:
>>I'm a 1000 year old demon who wakes up and, instead of actually doing some
>>great Evil, I head straight to the one place where my foretold opponent
>>is living. No..no..let's not blight a few crops in Asia and then cause a
>>drought in Africa and then torch buildings in the USA..no..let's go
>>straight to Paris and confront my enemy.
Gregory tries:
>The demon cannot utilize its full powers until it defeats the
>Champion. You think only heroes have quests? Pffftt....
Ah..but according to the myth, the Demon is always defeated by the Champion.(kind of a useless struggle if you ask me) So..what is the point? I think Id spend at least a little time doing as much damage as I could before my inevitable defeat. But then..I like damage. The Demon seems to prefer low grade annoyance.
>>my greatest weapon is fear and red fog. My *two* greatest weapons are
>>fear, red fog and bleeding roses. My *three* greatest weapons are fear,
>>red fog, bleeding roses and the walking dead. Wait a minute..I have the
>>fear, the red fog, the bleeding roses, walking dead and French gibbering
>>dwarf...My *four*......
>Sounds like it would make for a good game for the Playstaion 2.
Sounds like someone who played way too much D&D in college and still has the little red cape in a drawer.
>>Why was the demon able to kill the guide in the cave but then let Landry
>live?
>
>Landry was the vessel through which the demon communicated with
>Duncan. Not the vessel with the pestle (that contained the pellet with the
>poison...that's another show).
Couldn't the Demon just communicate directly? What good is being a demon if you have to rely on demented archaeologists as go-betweens? (Maybe Landry was the mortar and Ahriman was the pestle?)
>>Why was that hermit waiting 600 years in a cave for Duncan's arrival?
>
>And take the chance that another Immortal might lop his head off before he
>could deliver the message to the Champ? Nuh-uh. Probably took a lesson
>from Methos in that regard.
But if the meeting of Champion and Avatar is predestined....then Duncan would have arrived at the proper spot with the proper weapons at the proper time- or else he wasn't the predestined Champion.
>>Shouldn't someone have contacted the Zoroastrians and mentioned that their
>>demon was loose?
>
>Someone did. The Zoroastrians disavowed all knowledge of the demon. They
>wanted to avoid the lawsuits.
Typical Zoroastrians. Never take responsibility for the havoc they cause.
>>Is it really fair to pick a Champion who isn't even of the same Faith as
>>the demon?
>
>Faith has nothing to do with it. Although if you mean the actress who
>played Faith in BTVS, I wouldn't mind seeing her in the new HL movie <g>.
faith..Faith ..what's the dif? <eg> I simply think it's wrong to force crazy Scots to fight Zoroastrian demons every 1000 years. (That hermit did seem to be a Scot, didn't he?)
>>Why did Duncan go all Lakota after killing Richie?
>
>The writers flipped a coin. Heads he goes Lakota, tales he goes Pavarotti.
I'd have preferred the Pavaratti. I always thought "Archangel" needed a good operatic score at the end. ...maybe the song from "Turandot" they used in "Sum of All Fears" (Nessun Dorma, I think)
The Indian "thing" really made no sense. Duncan was, first and foremost, a Scot. It is how he identified himself for 400+ years. Suddenly, when he does the Very Bad Thing, he reverts back to the few years he spent with the Lakota? Why?
>>Did 98% of the audience understand why Duncan stole Richie's glove?
>
>That was Duncan's glove. Richie never did give it back, the little rat.
That explains much. <eg>
>>And ..tomorrow we get "Avatar"..which is arguably the *worst* Highlander
>>episode ever produced, bar none (not even the Zone)
>
>No, I'd argue the Zone was worse. At least Avatar was a transitory
>episode. The Zone was just filler to round out an even 22 eps.
No, Avatar is worse. Not only does it suffer from "middle episode of trilogy" syndrome, it is just bad, Bad, I say! Duncan has short hair, there are French people speaking English and English people speaking French, there are more dead-people-walking, roses that bleed, and when it is all over- we still have to sit through Armageddon.
>>#mean-spirited(Let's all huddle around our "singing bowl" and see if we can
>>bore the big bad demon to death.)
>
>Oh if only the writers would have gotten tails. Then the singing bowl
>would have been replaced by the dancing castanets (accompanied by Duncan
>doing his rendition of Carmen). That would have made for a believable
>demon-death.
I don't think Carmen would work on a Zoroastrian demon with a love of French Little People....I'd have tried Aida.
Wendy(Elephants and guys with spears are always good when demon hunting)
Immortals Inc.
immortals_incorporated@cox.net
"Weasels for Eternity"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 19:54:50 -0700
From: Danni Butterfuss <dbutter@wvi.com>
Subject: Re: Archangel - yet again
ah, er, Excuse me Ms. Weezul...... how was it that Landry and the guide
got to that area to begin w/? It's below the Southern No Fly Zone.
.........................runs back to hide in my
corner......................
Danni
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 20:55:59 -0700
From: FKMel <sgt_buck_frobisher@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Archangel
>
> The only reason I can fathom that the writers would
> toss in completely unrelated new information such as
what we saw in Archangel was that at the time of the
writing (and I'm going from memory here so I could be
wrong the show was going to end with that episode>
Archangel was supposed to be the series closer.
That works. Though I don't think I'd have closed it
with something like that. Too many loose ends.
>
> Even though season 5 had its share of "bad"
> episodes, there were good episodes (Til Death, Comes
a Horseman) and I'll still take the season 5 as
> being worthwhile to the Highlander story.
Me too. It's Season Six I have big doubts about. Maybe
I should just ignore it LOL. I don't know.
>
> He Who Hopes The Canon In Archangel Is Ignored Much
> Like The Canon Of HL2
Agreed. And Endgame. Richie and Connor live and that's
that. I think the first film is the only good one of
the bunch. It was just never intended to be a
franchise,hence the 'Connor wins the Prize' ending.
But, I digressed.
Mel, who has doubts that any new spinoff series will
work all that well, and who didn't even really like
The Raven
=====
The trouble with immortality is that it tends to go on forever-Herb Cain
FK:NickNatPacker, Knight of the Cross,Knightie, Natpacker/Highlander:Duncan Flag-Waver/Due South Fan/Tracker Fan/Angel Fan/Port Charles Fan
__________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 00:59:59 -0700
From: Gregory Mate <gmate@rogers.com>
Subject: Re: Archangel - yet again
Wendy:
>Ah..but according to the myth, the Demon is always defeated by the
>Champion.(kind of a useless struggle if you ask me) So..what is the point?
<snip>
But if the meeting of Champion and Avatar is predestined....
<snip>
The Demon may not believe in man-made myths and "predestiny." Besides, the
Demon probably hopes that one day the "prophecy" will not come true. Of
course I'm probably ascribing too much sentience to a Highlander-written Demon.
<snip>
Couldn't the Demon just communicate directly? What good is being a demon if
you have to rely on demented archaeologists as go-betweens?
Who knows? Assuming the Demon is able to perform acts that cannot be
explained by scientific laws (e.g. the walking dead), it could be bound by
other laws not known to we mere mortals. Again, maybe more thought than
what went into the episode...I don't know.
<snip>
Sounds like someone who played way too much D&D in college and still has
the little red cape in a drawer.
I missed out on the red cape. Didn't play enough, I guess. *sigh*
>I'd have preferred the Pavaratti. I always thought "Archangel" needed a
>good operatic score at the end. ...maybe the song from "Turandot" they
>used in "Sum of All Fears" (Nessun Dorma, I think)
Highlander The Opera. Highlander on Broadway. Highlander in black box
theatre! DPP has so many untapped markets for the franchise. Believe it
or not, there is (was?) a professional wrestler who went by the name of
Kurgann (of course, with the opening of the first movie featuring a
wrestling match, I suppose that was bound to happen).
>The Indian "thing" really made no sense. Duncan was, first and foremost, a
>Scot. It is how he identified himself for 400+ years. Suddenly, when he
>does the Very Bad Thing, he reverts back to the few years he spent with
>the Lakota? Why?
Unbidden memories surfacing? Maybe something happened to him during that
time that was very, very important for this particular situation? Is it
that obvious that I'm grasping here?
....Greg....
gmate@rogers.com
He Who Is Glad They Didn't Make A Zone Trilogy
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 07:09:14 +0200
From: T'Mar <tmar@sifl.iid.co.za>
Subject: Re: Archangel - yet again
>That..and the fact that my greatest weapon is fear and red fog. My
>*two* greatest weapons are fear, red fog and bleeding roses. My
>*three* greatest weapons are fear, red fog, bleeding roses and the
>walking dead. Wait a minute..I have the fear, the red fog, the
>bleeding roses, walking dead and French gibbering dwarf...My *four*......
"I'll come in again!" <g>
(That part had me ROTFL.)
>And ..tomorrow we get "Avatar"..which is arguably the *worst*
>Highlander episode ever produced, bar none (not even the Zone)
I'll agree there. Especially since The Zone did have Saint Michael.
(Michael Shanks to the uninitiated.) Hehe.
- Marina.
\\ "I'm naming all the stars." ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// "You can't see the stars, love. That's the || R I C H I E >> \\
\\ ceiling. Also, it's day." - Drusilla & Spike ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//===============tmar@sifl.iid.co.za============|| \\
\\==============Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie============//
"I went to Chulak, and all I got was this lousy Goa'uld."
- Stargate T-shirt idea.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:24:26 -0400
From: Wendy Tillis <immortals_incorporated@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Archangel
Gregory wrote:
>The only reason I can fathom that the writers would toss in completely
>unrelated new information such as what we saw in Archangel was that at the
>time of the writing (and I'm going from memory here so I could be wrong)
>the show was going to end with that episode.
Which is precisely the worst possible moment to toss in a bunch of new crap (and crap it was). If writers know that they are writing what could possibly be the last episode of any TV show, they owe it to the viewers to give them a proper ending. An ending that is in keeping with the series and which allows the audience to let go of the series with some measure of satisfaction. To have HL:TS end after 5 years with Richie dead at Duncan's hand, Joe and Methos in tears, and a crazy, demon-pursued Duncan running off into the fog chanting Lakota laments would have been a horrible end - and a disservice to the viewers who watched week after week for 5 years.Why in deity's name would you craft such an ending?
>As such, they wanted to throw
>in some new plot hooks for movies (probably thinking Miramax/Dimension
>Films here).
But these writers were savvy enough to know that any movie was 1) a long shot, and 2) unlikely to take up where the Series left off. Can you imagine a HL movie that *started* with the events of "Avatar"? How would you explain *that* to the movie goers who saw a HL 1,2 and 3 but not the Series? Do you purposely screw the millions of viewers who watched the Series in hopes of setting up a possible movie sometime in the future?
>Rather than end the show with a nice ensemble at the end
>(envision Joe's bar with Duncan, Methos, Richie, Amanda, and a few guest
>Immortals thrown into the mix having a 404'th or whatever birthday),
Surely there were other choices? <eg> After all, they knew all along that they might be writing the final season on HL:TS. They had time to set up a finale that "ended" the story of Duncan MacLeod on a at least somewhat hopeful note while still leaving open the possibility of a movie somewhere down the line.
> they
>probably wanted to give fans something to look forward to in a new
>movie.
When you got done watching Archangel for the first time, was your first thought, "Oh goodie! This will make a great movie plot!"?
I could now enter into my rant against writers who come to believe that their job is to give viewers what they "need" rather than what they want. ..against writers who (and actors) who decide that their personal "artistic" satisfaction takes priority over the satisfaction of the people who pay the bills by watching their shows...against writers who have so little imagination that they think despair and angst are the *only* ways to make a story vital and interesting....against writers who think that having "everyone dead on the floor" is the perfect way to end anything....
I never expected that HL:TS would end with Duncan and some nice lady in a garden surrounded by flowers and kitties. OTOH, there was no real reason why it had to end with the events of Archangel or, later, with To Be/Not To Be. The writers got fixated early on with fog and couldn't quite shake it.
Wendy(Personally, I'd have ending HL with Methos and Duncan sitting in Joe's having a beer and recapping the episode's events... they feel the Buzz..the door opens.... a stunningly beautiful woman enters....they both smile appreciatively...fade out...)(Hey, I'm a sucker for happy endings<g>)
Immortals Inc.
immortals_incorporated@cox.net
"Weasels for Eternity"
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:53:22 -0400
From: Ace!Miracle <ke731458@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu>
Subject: Re: Archangel - yet again
Maybe it's just me, but as I read Wendy's summary, I could hear it in the
voice of a really excited writer, pitching it to the other writers, all of
whom were going "Yeah, yeah! Great idea!"
Wendy Weezul wrote:
> My *two* greatest weapons are fear, red fog and bleeding roses
Hey, the roses worked on Sailor Moon. Tuxedo Kamen would throw one, and
the huge demon would recoil in fear. I guess it doesn't translate as well
into live action.
(Amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as fear, red fog, bleeding
roses, the walking dead, a French midget, and nice new uniforms. Oh
blast!)
Wendy:
>>The whole story arc makes so little sense as to be almost laughable.
Gregory Mate <gmate@ROGERS.COM> replied:
> You should watch some of the stories they come up with for televised
> professional wrestling.
Yes, but at least we expect that to be laughable. TV wrestling has never
pretended to be anything other than what it is: entertainment. Now, we've
had some good moments on Highlander. Good use of history and myth, good
character moments, drama, angst, laughter. This was just...ridiculous.
> Oh if only the writers would have gotten tails. Then the singing bowl
> would have been replaced by the dancing castanets
Hey, we never got the dancing Ewoks. After Virginier worked so hard to
train the little fellers...
--Miracle (could have been worse) (Ahriman could have appeared as
Jar Jar Binks)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"They say the biggest problem in the world is apathy. But really, who
cares about that?" --Jeremy Lloyd, Laugh-In
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Minor Major Miracle: Time Lady, Jedi Knight, Occasional English Professor
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 07:45:57 -0700
From: Becky Doland <becky@beckyjo.com>
Subject: Re: Archangel - yet again
Miracle:
> Maybe it's just me, but as I read Wendy's summary, I
> could hear it in the
> voice of a really excited writer, pitching it to the
> other writers, all of
> whom were going "Yeah, yeah! Great idea!"
Yes, a brainstorming session gone mad. I imagine the
first idea was to take Richie out. Then they decided
Duncan doing it would carry the biggest impact. Not
being able to come up with any earthly reason where
Duncan would be in any position to do this, they had to
create an unearthly reason.
Demons aside, was killing Richie - regardless of how it
happened - a good idea or a bad idea? I don't have any
problem with a series killing off a major character as
it comes to an end. I think it takes guts. In
Richie's case I only have a problem with the method for
his demise.
~ Becky
My memory is not as sharp as it used to be. Also, my
memory is not as sharp as it used to be.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 12:16:00 -0700
From: Gregory Mate <gmate@rogers.com>
Subject: Re: Archangel
Wendy:
> <snip> Why in deity's name would you craft such an ending?
Well, *I* wouldn't. And I'm sure much of Highlander fandom would have
written such an ending differently. Unfortunately the episode was in the
can, as far as I remember, before a sixth season was certain (or even
tentative). Therefore the writers (or at least the ones with pull) wrote
it as a series ender. For all I know, it could have been Panzer's son
studying Zoroastrianism in Ancient Religions class and he wanted to reward
an "A" on his essay with an episode in his honor (this of course *pure*
speculation...I don't even know if Bill Panzer has children).
>But these writers were savvy enough to know that any movie was 1) a long
>shot, and 2) unlikely to take up where the Series left off. Can you
>imagine a HL movie that *started* with the events of "Avatar"? How would
>you explain *that* to the movie goers who saw a HL 1,2 and 3 but not the
>Series? Do you purposely screw the millions of viewers who watched the
>Series in hopes of setting up a possible movie sometime in the future?
Right. We all know how well 1, 2 and 3 dovetailed into each other
<bg>. The movie could have included an abridged version of
Archangel. Maybe they could have used children instead of little people,
as the original script called for. It wouldn't have been a *good* movie,
but then HL2 (different from the 2nd HL movie, as Mel was astute to notice,
but that's another matter entirely) wasn't something that Highlander fans
exactly embraced either.
>When you got done watching Archangel for the first time, was your first
>thought, "Oh goodie! This will make a great movie plot!"?
No, but perhaps someone on the production team did.
>I could now enter into my rant against writers who come to believe that
>their job is to give viewers what they "need" rather than what they want.
>..against writers who (and actors) who decide that their personal
>"artistic" satisfaction takes priority over the satisfaction of the people
>who pay the bills by watching their shows...against writers who have so
>little imagination that they think despair and angst are the *only* ways
>to make a story vital and interesting....against writers who think that
>having "everyone dead on the floor" is the perfect way to end anything....
You could, but I'm glad self-control prevented that from happening <bg>.
>I never expected that HL:TS would end with Duncan and some nice lady in a
>garden surrounded by flowers and kitties. OTOH, there was no real reason
>why it had to end with the events of Archangel or, later, with To Be/Not
>To Be. The writers got fixated early on with fog and couldn't quite shake it.
Fog, as a special effect, is probably relatively inexpensive. We can't all
get ILM.
>Wendy(Personally, I'd have ending HL with Methos and Duncan sitting in
>Joe's having a beer and recapping the episode's events... they feel the
>Buzz..the door opens.... a stunningly beautiful woman enters....they both
>smile appreciatively...fade out...)(Hey, I'm a sucker for happy endings<g>
Alternate ending #1: Swords are drawn, battle ensues between Methos and
Duncan over the woman. The winner stars in the next movie, and depends
whether PW or AP sign the contract.
Alternate ending #2: Joe introduces woman as his new love interest. Faces
of Methos and Duncan both crestfallen. Joe looks at both, laughs heartily.
Alternate ending #3: the "stunningly beautiful" woman removes the scarf
from her head, revealing her face in the light. They know her. The hands
have very long nails. Shot of Methos and Duncan, eyes bugging out, beer
snorted through noses. Cut to black.
....Greg....
gmate@rogers.com
He Who Wonders Whether Avatar Referred To The Demon Or Duncan
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End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 10 Sep 2003 to 11 Sep 2003 (#2003-210)
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