HIGHLA-L Digest - 13 May 2003 to 14 May 2003 (#2003-76)
Automatic digest processor (LISTSERV@lists.psu.edu)
Wed, 14 May 2003 22:00:01 -0400
There are 15 messages totalling 543 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. the Trolls of Highla-L/was: Re: DISCUSS: Future of HLFIC-L
2. The Hunters (or maybe it should be ' Here come the Watchers') (8)
3. Nowhere to Run (4)
4. Highlander Moment, or What Methos and the Horsemen are Doing Now
5. Vague SLASH: was:/Re: The Hunters (or maybe it should be ' Here come the
Watchers')
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 22:24:40 -0400
From: Sandy Fields <diamonique@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: the Trolls of Highla-L/was: Re: DISCUSS: Future of HLFIC-L
At 02:12 PM 5/11/2003, Marina Bailey wrote:
>Well-policed lists are, in a word, *boring*.
Ain't that the truth!
>There is usually very little meaningful discussion, and when a discussion
>starts to *get* meaningful and a bit heated, the "list mom" always steps
>in and stops it.
"Let's play nice, kiddies." "Can't we all just get along?"
I've joined several other lists over the past year, and they always make me
appreciate Debbie just that much more. The wisdom she has shown in letting
us have our passionate discussions is actually not all that common. The
"list moms" out there want everything nice and neat and agreeable.... and
boring.
Quoting ZK: Thank you Debbie!
-- Sandy (sekrit msg to Wendy: remember the LFN list?)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 06:17:13 -0700
From: Stephen Bryce <sibryce@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: The Hunters (or maybe it should be ' Here come the Watchers')
> Duncan said that even the most evil of their kind
> wouldn't desecrate holy ground...he must not have
> heard about whatshisname...Kane? Kurgen? I know it
was
> a K'immie but as for which one, I can't remember.
The
> one who was after Connor in the first movie. Didn't
he
> try to start fighting Connor in the church? Or am I
> mistaken?
Kind of. The Kurgen was the guy who went after Connor
in HL1, but it was Kane (HL3 -- which probably wasn't
written yet) who fought with him on Holy Ground.
> And then of course we have Kell and Connor's little
> cemetary duel, but a, that came later and b, I'm
> beginning to ignore that movie too.
Well, technically, they fought outside the cemetary,
not inside it, so... In any case, since no heads were
taken, it's a bit academic -- there's nothing to stop
them from fighting on Holy Ground, just killing.
Stephen Bryce
=====
"Never become more popular than the boss... unless you intend to sack him." (Baron Vladimir Harkonnen, "Dune" miniseries)
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 09:56:45 -0400
From: jjswbt@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: The Hunters (or maybe it should be ' Here come the Watchers')
Mel wrote:
> I
>already think Horton's going to be an annoying sort of
>character,
I'd venture to guess that you'll find him more than just annoying.
>but I like Fitz.
Everyone liked Fitz. Right? I mean..does anyone *not* like Fitz? No..no..wait..that wasn't a request for a roll call!!!
> And tomorrow, we finally get to meet Joe.
The truth be told, over the years I came to dislike Joe more and more. Part had to do with Jim's acting skills/style, and part had to do with my dislike for the Watchers as a concept, and part was just that Joe became annoying<eg> Be a Watcher..be a friend of Duncan's - just decide which and *be* that. It was fine to have Joe be conflicted in the early days - but 5 years later he was still conflicted.
>The Watcher's Guide says 'bookstore owner' When did he get the bar?
He picks up the bar between S2 and S3. It was more fun to go visit Joe in a bar than in a bookstore - it came the actors something to do with their hands (hold drinks, wipe down the bar) and gave Jim a chance to play guitar.
>Speaking of which, Duncan said that even the most evil
>of their kind wouldn't desecrate holy ground...he must
>not have heard about whatshisname...Kane? Kurgen? I
>know it was a K'immie but as for which one, I can't
>remember. The one who was after Connor in the first
>movie. Didn't he try to start fighting Connor in the
>church? Or am I mistaken?
Kurgan tried to pick a fight in a church but that was about all. In "Line of Fire", Duncan and Kern break up a wedding with their fight. Duncan beats up on Methos in a church in "Deliverance". Connor fights Kane in front of what looks like a shrine in HL3. I other words, fight in a church is OK..killing each other in church is a no-no.
>And then of course we have Kell and Connor's little
>cemetary duel, but a, that came later and b, I'm
>beginning to ignore that movie too.
Cemeteries are tricky. One would assume that all cemeteries qualify as HG, but one would be wrong<g> You could have an unconsecrated cemetery or a deconsecrated cemetery or maybe a semi-consecrated cemetery.
Wendy(Being able to blot out inconsistencies, at least temporarily, is an essential element to being a HL fan)
Fairy Killer
jjswbt@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~jjswbt/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 10:06:33 -0400
From: jjswbt@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Nowhere to Run
I said:
>>If Bellion wanted to avenge his daughter's honor (or his own honor for
>>that matter) why not just wait until Mark comes out of the house in the
>>normal course of event? Catch him when he goes out to his car and snap his
>>useless neck... it certainly didn't require a full scale assault on the
>house.
Pat is bothered:
>What's always bothered me was Duncan uncharacteristically allowing Tessa &
>Richie to be endangered. When he saw that Bellion had brought in mercs,
>why didn't Duncan challenge him? Why allow the mortals to be placed at
>risk?
I assume Duncan didn't challenge Bellion because it was going to be hard to explain to all the by-standers. "Excuse us...we're going to go over there and try to chop each others heads off. Just go about your business. Back in a sec"
And, there is the issue of whether the mercs would have given up if Bellion were dead - would they have pursued vengeance on their own? And..Bellion wanted to kill Mark..he didn't want to kill Duncan. So, he may well have refused to face Duncan until his quest against Mark was over. .
I agree that this was not really a HL episode...it was a generic action ep which happened to have HL characters. Some of the worst HL episodes are those that had nothing in particular to do with being Immortal...The Zone, Revenge of the Sword, Bless the Child, Double Eagle, the Blitz, Dramatic License, Money No Object.....
Wendy(The other worst HL episodes were those involving red fog, bleeding roses, and gibberish speaking French dwarves.)
Fairy Killer
jjswbt@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~jjswbt/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 10:15:56 -0400
From: Sandy Fields <diamonique@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Nowhere to Run
At 10:06 AM 05/14/2003 -0400, jjswbt@EARTHLINK.NET wrote:
>Wendy(The other worst HL episodes were those involving red fog, bleeding
>roses, and gibberish speaking French dwarves.)
Ouch! You just made me have a flashback that I *really* didn't want to have.
My head hurts.
-- Sandy (corpses with glowing red eyes and holy hot tubs)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 16:28:26 +0200
From: Marina Bailey <tmar@sifl.iid.co.za>
Subject: Re: Nowhere to Run
Wendy wrote:
>I agree that this was not really a HL episode...it was a generic action
>ep which happened to have HL characters. Some of the worst HL episodes
>are those that had nothing in particular to do with being Immortal...
>The Zone, Revenge of the Sword, Bless the Child, Double Eagle, the
>Blitz, Dramatic License, Money No Object.....
What she said. :) I remember, when we were first discussing these eps,
that we said that most of them could have been episodes of Renegade or
MacGyver or any other generic action show. To me, HL has always been
about the ramifications of Immortality. But the eps Wendy mentions
turned Immortality into a *gimmick* to use in an action ep. Change a
detail here or there, and it wouldn't make any difference.
>(The other worst HL episodes were those involving red fog, bleeding
>roses, and gibberish speaking French dwarves.)
Still haven't seen those in South Africa. Hee.
- Marina.
\\ "I think somewhere on the road to reality, ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// you took a left turn." - Nowhere Man || R I C H I E >> \\
\\====Marina Bailey====tmar@sifl.iid.co.za====||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//===Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie==|| \\
"What about the fact they thought we were gay?"
"Adds mystery." - Wesley and Angel; 'Expecting' (Angel)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 10:26:12 -0400
From: Becky Doland <becky@beckyjo.com>
Subject: Re: The Hunters (or maybe it should be ' Here come the Watchers')
Mel mentioned:
> >Speaking of which, Duncan said that even the most evil
> >of their kind wouldn't desecrate holy ground...
Duncan - IMHO - mostly saw the world in black and white, and he had problems
with the gray areas. But to me there's a big gray area in this statement of
his. If the most evil wouldn't desecrate holy ground, doesn't that mean
that they're not so totally evil?
and Wendy wrote:
> Cemeteries are tricky. One would assume that all cemeteries qualify as HG,
but one would be wrong<g> You could >have an unconsecrated cemetery or a
deconsecrated cemetery or maybe a semi-consecrated cemetery.
How do they know which is which? It's not like there's a sign pointing out
which ones have been unconsecrated. Do they have some kind of sixth sense
about what's holy and what's not?
Becky
<------ Save the earth. It's the only planet with chocolate. ------->
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 07:36:30 -0700
From: FKMel <sgt_buck_frobisher@yahoo.com>
Subject: Highlander Moment, or What Methos and the Horsemen are Doing Now
I was reading one of my 'Angel' list digests and they
had an article about the latest Crow movie, which
David Boreanaz is going to be in. I noticed a snippet
in the article that read:
Luc Crash and Lola Byrne lead a group of three other
men (War, Famine & Pestilence), known as the "Four
Horseman of the Apocalypse".
I immediately started thinking "What are they doing
there?" and "Oh, so that's what Methos and the
Horsemen are doing now that Highlander's done." I
know, I know, only Methos was still alive when the
series finished but anyway...
Mel
=====
The trouble with immortality is that it tends to go on forever-unknown
FK:NickNatPacker, Knight of the Cross,Knightie, Natpacker/Highlander:Duncan Flag-Waver/Due South Fan/Tracker Fan/Angel Fan/Port Charles Fan
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 10:50:25 -0400
From: KLZ3 <kzimmerman3@cox.net>
Subject: Vague SLASH: was:/Re: The Hunters (or maybe it should be ' Here come
the Watchers')
>
> Finally! Things are getting very interesting. I
> already think Horton's going to be an annoying sort of
> character, but I like Fitz. And tomorrow, we finally
> get to meet Joe.
>
Horton was one of those Evil Nemisises (Nemisii?) who have to
gloat and explain everything to the victim/hero/whatever. He
should have taken a look at that list that goes around about "If
I were an Evil Nemisis" (or whatever). You know, the one that
talks about hidden devices with humongous red digital numbers.
Horton could have knocked off every one of the immies that he
killed with a lot less fuss. And how come the older immortals
didn't notice that immortals kept disappearing with no flashing
lights?
:::: saddling up "Did Xavier have the hots for Horton?" ::::
(hee hee hee)
ZK
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 12:25:03 -0400
From: Sandy Fields <diamonique@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: The Hunters (or maybe it should be ' Here come the Watchers')
At 10:26 AM 05/14/2003 -0400, Becky Doland wrote:
>Duncan - IMHO - mostly saw the world in black and white, and he had
>problems with the gray areas. But to me there's a big gray area in this
>statement of his. If the most evil wouldn't desecrate holy ground,
>doesn't that mean that they're not so totally evil?
Not necessarily. Let's just say (for the sake of discussion) that no immie
has ever desecrated holy ground.
A good reason for even the most evil of them to abide by this rule is
because everybody has to have some place where they can sit down, relax,
breath, etc. Even the worst baddie will occasionally (every few hundred
years or so? <g>) need to be able to just chill out.
So.. obeying this HG rule would be a major benefit for everyone, and even a
baddie would want to be able to take advantage of this benefit at some
time... so he wouldn't break the rule.
That's my take on it anyway.
-- Sandy
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 09:48:37 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: The Hunters (or maybe it should be ' Here come the Watchers')
Becky--
> If the most evil wouldn't desecrate holy ground,
> >doesn't that mean that they're not so totally evil?
Sandy--
> A good reason for even the most evil of them to abide by this rule is
> because everybody has to have some place where they can sit down, relax,
> breath, etc. Even the worst baddie will occasionally (every few hundred
> years or so? <g>) need to be able to just chill out.
Nah--there's gotta be something more basic involved. Pain, probably. And
death involving a beheading somehow, & massive related mayhem. Nothing less
would have kept Immies of all types--including the unspeakably evil & the
numbingly stupid--from killing each other on HG for millenia. Remember
Joe's Pompeii tale from Little Tin God? It seemed to fit well w/ whatever
Duncan had in mind about killing on Holy Ground.
Of course, true or not, the mere _prospect_ of pain/death would probably do
the trick, if the story were put about broadly enough on the Immie
grapevine. Maybe Methos, in his salad days, started an elaborate hoax,
simply in order to provide himself innumerable & conveniently spaced safe
havens worldwide. Kick back w/ a beer in this church, that temple,
etc.--good plan.
Wendy--
> Everyone liked Fitz. Right? I mean..does anyone *not* like Fitz?
Kalas wasn't a big fan....
Wendy--
>>>The truth be told, over the years I came to dislike Joe more and more.
Part had to do with Jim's acting skills/style, and part had to do with my
dislike for the Watchers as a concept, and part was just that Joe became
annoying<eg> Be a Watcher..be a friend of Duncan's - just decide which and
*be* that. It was fine to have Joe be conflicted in the early days - but 5
years later he was still conflicted.>>>
It got old. Joe is one of those people who blithely do this & that, then
balk at the consequences of those actions. He wanted to be buddies w/ DM,
but he really didn't want to leave the Watchers or get in trouble w/ them,
so he lied & cheated for years covering up the relationship he had w/ his
Immie. Hard to respect that.
And the whole Watchers-not-getting-involved was irksome. So, Watchers
watch, over & over, the murder of innocents & other mayhem, keeping quiet so
that they can keep a record of Immie doings. Just what great & noble
purpose is such a record ever going to serve? Really--what use would it be
to mortals in some distant future when the record eventually is made public?
Horton was a loon, but he had a point--many Immies were, by mortal
standards, evil. Most Immies, one way or the other, constituted a danger to
innocents. By conspiring to keep immortality secret for untold years, how
much did the Watchers contribute to the world's pain & misery? And,
again--for what greater good?
Nina (Speaking of worrisome practicalities ignored on HL:TS. When an Immie
BHs the other guy & quickly slips his sword back into the scabbard, w/o
wiping it down? If that's a habit, imagine the DNA pool party going on in
the bottom....)
mac.westie@verizon.net
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 16:46:02 EDT
From: Brian Smith <ShadowPK@aol.com>
Subject: Re: The Hunters (or maybe it should be ' Here come the Watchers')
In a message dated 5/14/03 10:28:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
becky@beckyjo.com writes:
> How do they know which is which? It's not like there's a sign pointing out
> which ones have been unconsecrated. Do they have some kind of sixth sense
> about what's holy and what's not?
>
> Becky
>
Ok, I haven't seen the ep in awhile, but in Deliverence, when Duncan and
Methos were in the church.. wasn't Mac INCAPABLE of taking his head? Wasn't
there some inference of something HIGHER preventing it? The bullshit in the
beginning of Highlander Endgame (the Sanctuary beheadings) is just as out of
continuity as the rest of the movie sequels.
Bri
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 14:40:57 -0700
From: Jen <Data@cyberg8t.com>
Subject: Re: The Hunters (or maybe it should be ' Here come the Watchers')
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Bryce" <sibryce@yahoo.com>
To: <HIGHLA-L@LISTS.PSU.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 6:17 AM
Subject: Re: The Hunters (or maybe it should be ' Here come the Watchers')
> > Duncan said that even the most evil of their kind
> > wouldn't desecrate holy ground...he must not have
> > heard about whatshisname...Kane? Kurgen? I know it
> was
> > a K'immie but as for which one, I can't remember.
> The
> > one who was after Connor in the first movie. Didn't
> he
> > try to start fighting Connor in the church? Or am I
> > mistaken?
>
> Kind of. The Kurgen was the guy who went after Connor
> in HL1, but it was Kane (HL3 -- which probably wasn't
> written yet) who fought with him on Holy Ground.
> >> Stephen Bryce
>
Hehehe. And if you have seen the Watcher CD rom, one would know exactly who
Kurgan's watcher was, none other than James Horton. :)
Jen
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 16:47:29 -0700
From: Pat Lawson <plawson@webleyweb.com>
Subject: Re: Nowhere to Run
Wendy wrote:
>I assume Duncan didn't challenge Bellion because it was going to be hard
>to explain to all the by-standers. "Excuse us...we're going to go over
>there and try to chop each others heads off. Just go about your business.
>Back in a sec"
That's true. Perhaps they could have gone off to "negotiate in
private". The resultant headless body may or may not have been a
problem. Would Bellion's daughter call the police? She'd have a lot to
explain, and that could mean real trouble for his men.
>And, there is the issue of whether the mercs would have given up if
>Bellion were dead - would they have pursued vengeance on their own?
It works in the old movies. Kill their leader and all the savages
immediate stop fighting. ;-p
Besides, the mercs were pretty much portrayed as mindless
drones. Everyone knows drones are helpless without a leader.
>And..Bellion wanted to kill Mark..he didn't want to kill Duncan. So, he
>may well have refused to face Duncan until his quest against Mark was over. .
True, Bellion didn't strike me as likely to put his own life in danger.
Pat L.
Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with Windows.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 17:01:52 -0700
From: Pat Lawson <plawson@webleyweb.com>
Subject: Re: The Hunters (or maybe it should be ' Here come the Watchers')
you wrote:
>And the whole Watchers-not-getting-involved was irksome. So, Watchers
>watch, over & over, the murder of innocents & other mayhem, keeping quiet so
>that they can keep a record of Immie doings.
Isn't that pretty much what Darius did? Except for the record keeping of
course. He tried to convince the relatively small number of people he came
in contact with to stop fighting, and he ministered to their spiritual
needs. Other than that, he was a watcher.
Pat L.
Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with Windows.
------------------------------
End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 13 May 2003 to 14 May 2003 (#2003-76)
**************************************************************