HIGHLA-L Digest - 30 Sep 2002 (#2002-163)
Automatic digest processor (LISTSERV@lists.psu.edu)
Mon, 30 Sep 2002 22:00:01 -0400
There are 18 messages totalling 646 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Richie Haunted
2. How long... (6)
3. Well & truly a slash thing now (7)
4. Cassandra
5. HIGHLA-L Digest - 29 Sep 2002 to 30 Sep 2002 - Special issue
(#2002-162)
6. HIGHLA-L Digest - 29 Sep 2002 to 30 Sep 2002 - Special issue (#2002-162)
(2)
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Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 19:47:30 +0100
From: beccaelizabeth <r.day@netcom.co.uk>
Subject: Richie Haunted
> > Richie, Haunted.
> > guilt, remorse, shame, uncertainty. and a uniquely HL twist with the
> > whole was it him or the quickening in him thing.
>
> That's not what I was talking about. RR was totally fine w/ the sex--he was
> just freaked about identifying overly w/ the dead hubby he whacked. He'd
> have felt about the same had he slipped into the guy's skin while on a
> carnival ride w/ the widow.
I didnt see it so much that way. I saw him freaking because he had sex
with a grieving widow, a friend of Mac's, who he was supposed to be
looking after. Who then went and called him Alex. The part where maybe
it was the influence of another Immortal was just a small part of it.
there were many levels of reason to freak.
beccaelizabeth
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/4212
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 09:32:21 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: How long...
Someone no one has ever heard of wrote--
> Would the slashers please go and get some batteries for their vibrators,
get
> laid or rent some gay porn vids!
> Will the non-slashers please do the same, except make the videos hetero?
No.
Actually, things did seem to be winding down, but NOW everyone still alive
on the list will be checking in to point out that you're a twit (or
something worse) for failing to understand 1) the nature of a discussion
list & 2) basic operation of your own delete key. And, due to the
deliciously contrary nature of this list as a whole, the whole slash issue
will likely get a new lease on life & be around for a couple extra days.
Happy now?
Annie--
> There is lots of female slash in
> Stargate (mostly Sam/Janet).
That's because the SG-1 guys are so dull.
Leah--
>> A discussion of whether Cassandra put Methos off women?<
>And the reverse is just as likely, and an interesting topic, too.
That Methos put Cassie off women?
Leah--
> >(... had some interesting conversation with Tracy S. on
> the subject of
> >Cassandra, at Dragoncon, a few weeks ago)
Did she shed any light on whether Cassie actually seduced child-DM in
Prophecy's FB, or just flashed him?
Nina
mac.westie@verizon.net
Save Farscape http://farscape.wdsection.com/index.php
Frell Sci Fi, just on principle.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 13:14:58 -0700
From: Danni Butterfuss <dbutter@wvi.com>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
................ out of lurkdom........................
Rob said: 8< 8< ( snipped )
I think slash writers should feel obligated, in a legal and moral sense, to restrict their product to an appropriate audience.
I agree w/ you Rob and applaud you for the intelligence behind it.
I have a 9 yr. old daughter and she has never read any fan fic. A lot of
her tv up bringing has to do w/ her watching the USA version of the
series w/ me. She didn't like the 'mushy' parts as she called them and
said it reminded her of Mom and Dad kissing. My late husband and I were
openly affectionate ( hugging, kissing, touching when speaking ) and
were that way w/ her also. She still thought some parts were mushy and
really was not interested in those parts. She will continue to be
censored from slash or hetero scenes and writings until she is old
enough to be able to ask me questions about it. Slash is not my thing,
but I will leave it up yo her to figure out about any sexuality herself
as long as she is willing to ask about what she doesn't understand. I
have set blocks on pages she can pull up on the web until she doesn't
say ........." oh eck, I'm never doing that"............. in context w/
sexuality. We had the "talk" this summer.
.........ok back to lurkdom................
Danni
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 22:16:07 +0200
From: Marina Bailey <tmar@sifl.iid.co.za>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
Rob wrote:
>Remember that slash is inherently about sex.
I disagree with this completely. Sure, slash (usually) has sex in
it, but I do not read slash stories for the sex. (Somewhere, Nina
is laughing.) I read them for the relationships and the (if you
like) "added dimension" that a sexual/gay relationship gives to
the characters. There are slash stories out there that have no
sex at all. The *dynamic* of a relationship is different if it's
slashy, but there doesn't have to be sex in the story for it to
be slashy and enjoyable.
>I see that slashers - writers and devotees alike - particularly enjoy,
>well, bragging about their pornography, er, fanfic, all across fandom,
>especially on the Internet. Does an attraction to slash, and that
>"different" type of imagination, lead to an obsession with "outing"
>themselves publicly and subjecting everyone else to information about
>the genre?
I think that we just get tired of people telling us that we're sick,
perverted, childish and crazy, and eventually we have to stand up and
say, we're here, we're slash fans, get used to it, we're not going
away. Someone on another list once made the comment that slash fans
get treated on lists the way gay people are treated in life. And
as you get miltant gay people, you get miltant slash fans, too.
Because we don't think there is anything wrong with us and we don't
believe we should put up with people telling us that there is. At
school I teach the kids to be proud of who they are. And I'm proud of
who I am. I am a Highlander fan, and proud of it. I am a Richie Flag
Waver, and proud of it. I am a slash fan, and proud of it. And I'm
not going to sit somewhere out of the way and pretend that I don't
exist, and that the stuff I like doesn't exist.
- Marina. (Way too much West Wing, I think.) (The SHOW! The SHOW!)
\\ "I don't care about their different thoughts; ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// different thoughts are good for me." || R I C H I E >> \\
\\ - Tanita Tikaram ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//=====Marina Bailey=====tmar@sifl.iid.co.za=====|| \\
\\==============Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie=============//
"Great. Now I'm a slash enabler." - Nina
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 22:30:33 +0200
From: Marina Bailey <tmar@sifl.iid.co.za>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
Danni wrote:
>I have set blocks on pages she can pull up on the web until she doesn't
>say ........." oh eck, I'm never doing that"............. in context w/
>sexuality. We had the "talk" this summer.
That's being a responsible parent. Why do some parents expect the
webmasters/government to do their parenting for them? My cousin
is fourteen and and while they have the Internet at home, her parents
won't let her use it as they work weird shifts. They allow her to use
the Net at my house, but I would NEVER let her surf the Net by
herself.
We are getting Net access at our school for the kids next year and
there's no way I'd allow one child to surf the Net unsupervised.
There's a lot of stuff that gets by blocking software anyway - and
I'm not talking slash, which would probably bore most of the kids
I know to tears anyway.
Parents cannot expect people to censor things for them. If they
don't want their children exposed to things they don't like,
they should supervise them. I can't count the number of parents
who never once check that their child does his/her homework,
never come to parents' evenings, never respond to letters or
calls, and at the end of the year blame the school when the
child fails.
The logic of this escapes me.
- Marina.
\\ "I don't care about their different thoughts; ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// different thoughts are good for me." || R I C H I E >> \\
\\ - Tanita Tikaram ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//=====Marina Bailey=====tmar@sifl.iid.co.za=====|| \\
\\==============Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie=============//
"Great. Now I'm a slash enabler." - Nina
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 16:39:24 -0400
From: KLZ3 <KZIMMERMAN3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: How long...
> Eboli wrote:
> >How long has this conversation been going on?
> >Would the slashers please go and get some batteries for their vibrators, get
> >laid or rent some gay porn vids!
> >Will the non-slashers please do the same, except make the videos hetero?
>
Hey! We can't have this! I thought the "shut up and go away"
discussion was scheduled for first week in November! Who the
heck is keeping the schedule?
To Eboli, I say: No! We won't! So there! THPPPPPPP! What the
heck is a discussion list for but to discuss? The list has been
pitifully quiet for a long time; thinking and clarifying opinions
about slash is a lot better than nothing! I'm so glad to see
mail coming from Highla-L I can hardly stand it!
ZK (Wendy, you are *not* allowed to throw PoRA(tm) on the fire
until the weather turns cold)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 21:43:36 +0100
From: Jette Goldie <jette@blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
> Rob wrote:
> >Remember that slash is inherently about sex.
>
And Marina replies:
> I disagree with this completely. Sure, slash (usually) has sex in
> it, but I do not read slash stories for the sex. (Somewhere, Nina
> is laughing.)
Nina's not the only one laughing - I was waiting for
this post from you, Marina <g>
Jette
(aka Vinyaduriel)
"Work for Peace and remain fiercely loving" - Jim Byrnes
jette@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
http://bosslady.tripod.com/fanfic.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 16:42:22 -0400
From: Bizarro7@aol.com
Subject: Re: How long...
In a message dated Mon, 30 Sep 2002 2:32:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, mac.westie@verizon.net writes:
> Leah--
> >> A discussion of whether Cassandra put Methos off women?<
> >And the reverse is just as likely, and an interesting topic, too.
>
> That Methos put Cassie off women?<<
No, that her rape/slavery/torture/murder etc. etc. might have put her off men. But heck, your idea would be just as valid for fanfic. Anything goes...
> Leah--
> > >(... had some interesting conversation with Tracy S. on
> > the subject of
> > >Cassandra, at Dragoncon, a few weeks ago)
>
> Did she shed any light on whether Cassie actually seduced
> child-DM in
> Prophecy's FB, or just flashed him?
>
> Nina
> mac.westie@verizon.net
> Save Farscape http://farscape.wdsection.com/index.php
> Frell Sci Fi, just on principle.
Fortunately, I have better taste and more restraint than some present. But then, any restraint is an improvement over no ability to control one's self at all, eh? As for FARSCAPE, since I never became fond of the show, I'll leave the campaigning to those who did.
Leah
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 16:42:29 -0400
From: KLZ3 <KZIMMERMAN3@cox.net>
Subject: Cassandra
> Leah (who had some interesting conversation with Tracy S. on the subject of
> Cassandra, at Dragoncon, a few weeks ago)
Share! Share!
ZK (pleeeeze?)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 16:54:51 -0400
From: KLZ3 <KZIMMERMAN3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
> Sure, slash (usually) has sex in
> it, but I do not read slash stories for the sex. (Somewhere, Nina
> is laughing.) I read them for the relationships and the (if you
> like) "added dimension" that a sexual/gay relationship gives to
> the characters. There are slash stories out there that have no
> sex at all. The *dynamic* of a relationship is different if it's
> slashy, but there doesn't have to be sex in the story for it to
> be slashy and enjoyable.
:::: giggling ::::
IMGLO, the only reason to read slash is for the sex. Otherwise,
it's just a story about people and who cares if they're straight
or gay? I think that it's as inaccurate to label a story with
incidental gay characters as "slash" as it would be to label a
story that isn't centered around hetero sex as "Adult".
:::: remembering a group of fans who read a certain - um - book
driving back from a weekend gathering ::::
ZK
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 12:00:01 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: How long...
me before--
> > That Methos put Cassie off women?<<
Leah--
> No, that her rape/slavery/torture/murder etc. etc. might have put her off
men. But heck, your idea would be just as valid for fanfic.
You misunderstood. None of that was my idea. I was just trying to
derive_your_ meaning. I DO like a challenge. I think you were the one who
also today had TS herself the product of a 3-some.
Leah--
> Fortunately, I have better taste and more restraint than some present. But
then, any restraint is an improvement over no ability to control one's self
at all, eh?
And you are to be congratulated on even the smallest degree of
self-improvement.
Leah-
> As for FARSCAPE, since I never became fond of the show, I'll leave the
campaigning to those who did.
But of course. Just as I won't be voting for Michael Shanks, joining a
slash fiction group, or zipping over to the Ashton Press site to buy a
fanzine or read slash, despite the urgings of Annie's sig stuff.
Nina (see, Marina--slash sites & zines DO advertise on the net--they do it
right here on this list, regularly)
mac.westie@verizon.net
Save Farscape http://farscape.wdsection.com/index.php
Frell Sci Fi, just on principle.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 17:01:49 -0500
From: Vicki Farmer <vickita1961@netscape.net>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
SenseiRob@aol.com wrote:
> Remember that slash is inherently about sex.
Actually, this is a topic that gets discussed on slash lists. *Is*
slash inherently about sex? Of course, obviously, there's a lot of
sexually explicit stuff going on in slash, but if a story doesn't have a
sex scene (explicit or otherwise), if no sex is actively going on in the
story, is it still slash? And most of the time the consensus is that if
it's about intimate relationships between same-sex couples, then yeah,
it's still slash, even if no sex is happening in the course of the story
itself.
>Is it appropriate to publicly reveal your sexual inclinations,
activities, and interests in an open forum? Someone mentions slash and
suddenly it's a "Roll Call" for supporters. Is this a completely
appropriate audience?
Speaking for myself, I'm not going into graphic detail about sexual
behavior here. I'm just saying that I read slash, after the topic came
up. And yes, I decided quite a while ago that I'm not going to hide
that fact. I may not go around shoving printed-out sex scenes under
people's noses at the office (although there are people that I work with
who know that I read slash, as do my minister, Colleen, and her partner,
Evelyn *g*), but neither do I deny that I read the stuff on my own
computer in my own home, and I don't duck the topic when it comes up. I
figure that if I feel that I need to hide something I'm doing from
people, then I either need to examine what it is that I'm doing, or what
my relationships are about, and figure out what it is that needs fixing,
because something's not right. Integrity is the goal. I don't claim to
be there 100% on any given day (heh heh heh), but I try.
(Slash isn't even close to being the scariest thing to be honest about.)
Vicki F.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 15:36:31 -0700
From: Pat Lawson <plawson@webleyweb.com>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
Rob wrote:
> > Last time I looked, beheading people was also illegal. Should illegality
> > of characters actions be a criteria?
>
>Isn't it? The movie "Highlander" was rated R, so in fact portrayals of
>violence and sex are a criteria, and are Restricted, as the ratings say.
>In this instance, these activities are deemed inappropriate, and underage
>children are protected against being exposed to these images, sex and
>beheadings alike.
I think we're talking about two separate issues here. I'm all for age
appropriate ratings for content.
John raised the question of the acceptability of illegal acts
being portrayed in fiction. Also, how acceptable they're portrayed as
being in the fiction. I'm saying it should be about morality rather than
legality. One of the joys of fiction is the ability to explore moral
questions irrespective of the current legal code.
>Instead, I see that slashers - writers and devotees alike - particularly
>enjoy, well, bragging about their pornography, er, fanfic, all across
>fandom, especially on the Internet. Does an attraction to slash, and that
>"different" type of imagination, lead to an obsession with "outing"
>themselves publicly and subjecting everyone else to information about the
>genre? It does seem to be a compulsion among more than a few of you -
>heck, just count the posts in favor!
Would you consider it "outing" yourself to admit in a non-HL forum that you
love a show where people are regularly beheaded? There are people who
find that as perverse as you appear to find slash. It's a question of
perspective.
>(Envision someone holding up a copy of <choices not limited to Playboy,
>Playgirl, Playdude, Swank, Hustler> at a news stand and declaring publicly
>that they like <any combination of physical attributes or activities>).
I'd use the rl equivalent of the delete key. I'd walk away. I also do
that when accosted by religious types declaring their beliefs, which I find
equally offensive.
>(I'll be unhappy if I have to explain slash before we have "the talk", or
>he hits puberty at least)
If he hears the term and asks, you give him an age/maturity appropriate
answer. He probably won't be interested. If he is, you've waited to long
to have "the talk".
>(He'll know all about Highla-L from us, and even wear the shirts, but he
>won't experience it firsthand) (A shame, considering his own existence is
>completely rooted in Highlander fandom)
A shame? Highla has always been an adult forum, not appropriate for
children.
Pat
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 18:38:40 -0400
From: Bizarro7@aol.com
Subject: Re: How long...
In a message dated Mon, 30 Sep 2002 5:00:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, mac.westie@verizon.net writes:
> And you are to be congratulated on even the smallest degree of> self-improvement.
>
>
Thank you for yet another public demonstration. I do recommending a thoughough lancing someday, just to let all the poison out at once, every now and then.
Kissy (you may take that as attempted slash)
Leah
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 18:13:52 -0500
From: Ecolea <ecolea@wt.net>
Subject: Re: HIGHLA-L Digest - 29 Sep 2002 to 30 Sep 2002 - Special issue
(#2002-162)
Those who can delete, do. Those who get digests, can't. Those who don't like
my comments, share the pain.
And no, I did not post under an assumed name. It's all over my award winning
fan fiction.
Ecolea
I seized the day and it screamed -- then I killed it.
http://web.wt.net/~ecolea/EclecticReadingRoom/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 19:24:39 -0400
From: Morgan <morrigan13@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: HIGHLA-L Digest - 29 Sep 2002 to 30 Sep 2002 - Special issue
(#2002-162)
Ecoli wrote:
>Those who can delete, do. Those who get digests, can't. Those who don't like
>my comments, share the pain.
Those who choose to get digests have to deal with reading or skimming
through things they might not wish to read. BTDT.
>And no, I did not post under an assumed name. It's all over my award winning
>fan fiction.
::yawn::
Wendy, have you stoked the fire yet?
!perverse
# # #
your mama told you to be discreet / and keep your freak to yourself / but
your mama lied to you all this time / she knows as well as you and I /
you've got to express what is taboo in you / and share your freak with the
rest of us / cause it's a beautiful thang
--Macy Gray, "Sexual Revolution"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 19:39:40 -0400
From: jjswbt@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: How long...
Zeek wrote:
>Hey! We can't have this! I thought the "shut up and go away"
>discussion was scheduled for first week in November! Who the
>heck is keeping the schedule?
No, I think you're mistaken. We moved the "shut up and go away" discussion ahead of the "Was Cassandra an obsessive bitch" discussion so as to have time for the "Was Methos one of the Three Wise Men " discussion just before Christmas.
>(Wendy, you are *not* allowed to throw PoRA(tm) on the fire
>until the weather turns cold)
I believe my contract says I can throw whomever I want on the fire at any time. Besides, it comes down cold at night this time of year.
Ecolea
>And no, I did not post under an assumed name. It's all over my award winning fan fiction.
Oh...isn't that special.
Wendy (The "slash discussion" has been around since before 1995.)(It will be around as long as there are lonely single women willing to write it and read it.)(:::::::::::::::::::evil cackle::::::::)
Fairy Killer
jjswbt@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~jjswbt/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 19:35:13 -0400
From: Sandy Fields <diamonique@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: HIGHLA-L Digest - 29 Sep 2002 to 30 Sep 2002 - Special issue
(#2002-162)
At 07:13 PM 09/30/02, Ecolea wrote:
>Those who can delete, do. Those who get digests, can't.
That's the nature of digests. You chose to get digests.... nobody forced
them on you. It's up to you to deal with all the stuff in there that
you're not interested in. That's one of the reasons I choose to get
individual emails... it's easier to read what I want and just delete the
rest (without harping to the list about it).
So whaddaya think? Just what *was* that spiral Q thingy between Duncan and
Methos all about? Do only gay men playfully paint each others noses? And
what about Amanda and Rebecca sleeping in the same bed? Did Rebecca teach
Amanda more than just how to fight?
-- Sandy (no apology for insulting people?)
------------------------------
End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 30 Sep 2002 (#2002-163)
************************************************