HIGHLA-L Digest - 3 Oct 2004 to 4 Oct 2004 (#2004-184)
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Mon, 4 Oct 2004 22:00:06 -0400
There are 2 messages totalling 190 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Season Five dvd Commentary: Little Tin God (2)
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Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 16:01:11 -0400
From: Wendy Tillis <immortals_incorporated@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Season Five dvd Commentary: Little Tin God
MacG reports:
>When Duncan stands, he realizes he’s been drugged, and learns that while
>he will be allowed to leave, his guide Paco will have to stay to keep
>him from telling the world about the Moche. Lorca sacrifices Paco on the
>altar,
This is where we get to discuss whether the altar constitutes HG or not. If an area is used for a religious ritual, does that make it HG. Who decides? How?
>Joe says that in all their records, there is only one mention of an
>Immortal killing on holy ground, and tells him of a legend of two guys
>“going at it” in a temple in Pompeii, 79 A.D., at the time of the
>explosion of Mt. Vesuvius.
This always struck me as damned stupid. Mt. Vesuvius is a volcano. It erupted because its a volcano - not because some Immortals fought there. And it didn't go from non-active to eruptive in a sudden *pow* ..there were days/weeks of warning before it blew. Why TPTB feel they had to pick a real historical event to "blame" on a fight on HG?
Since I find it so ridiculous, I choose to put it into the same category as Dark Quickenings. Joe speaks of the *legend* about Mt. Vesuvius (just as he speaks of rumors of DQs) so there is no need to accept it as Truth.
>In the tag, Duncan is sitting on the bar at Joe’s reading a postcard
>from Carl Robinson reporting that Derek “has one hell of a slider.” Joe
>has his own postcard from Reverend Bell, who is now Derek’s Watcher.
Why would they put a brand new recruit- one with zero training- into the field? It was clear from many past episodes that Watchers were trained - sometimes for years before being given a field assignment. The fact that Bell knew Derek makes him an unlikely candidate for being Derek's Watcher- unless Joe has instituted a policy whereby all Watchers are now buddy-buddy with their Immortal. If Derek is with Carl, why wouldn't Carl's Watcher keep track of Derek until he went out on his own?
>Joe
>reminds Duncan about Bell’s worry that some of the great prophets of
>history were just Immortals, and asks Duncan if it was a possibility.
>Duncan tells him it isn’t, and Joe asks how he can be sure of that.
>
>“Well, I could quote a whole bunch of people, Joe, but it basically
>boils down to one thing.”
>
>“And that is?”
>
>“Faith, Joe. Faith.”
This struck me as weak, because, obviously, it is entirely possible (in the HL universe) that men (or women) who claimed god-like powers were, in fact, Immortals. People walking through fire unharmed, people living hundreds of years, people rising from the dead...all were just as easily Immortals as saints or chosen ones or prophets. A better argument would have been that one should look at the message and not the messenger- if the message resonates with the people..if the ideas were good... if the power of the words was still strong after thousands of years- what does it matter if the prophet was Immortal or human?
>I really like bad guys when they are given some motivation for what they
>have become. Lorca wasn’t initially a bad guy, per se (the lawyer
>comment was a bit of a cheap shot <g>).
I kept wondering if Pizarro really brought lawyers with him to the New World. (Actually Joe says he was a lawyer, then the in King's Guard, then a pirate, and then came to the New World.)
>But we got some interesting new information, such as that the rule about
>not killing on holy ground is based not just on habit and good manners.
>There is a real belief that something truly terrible would happen. Lorca
>says that, “even the devil fears Armageddon,” when importuning his
>followers not to fight on holy ground. We also have Joe’s story about
>two Immortals fighting in a temple in Pompeii at the time of the
>eruption of Mt. Vesuvius.
Well..there is "real belief" but it is still based on habit and rumor, nothing more. We have only Joe's silly legend about Vesuvius as "proof" that something actually happens when Immortals fight on HG. Two Immortals fight in Pompeii and...what? Vesuvius explodes and....destroys a whole mortal town to punish the Immortals? (Seems like overkill and causes unnecessary casualties among the mortals to be considered good mojo) They are both covered in lava and ash? (Still alive even today under the mess?)(Or eventually found and saved- like a very long prison sentence?) If they are buried ...then how does any Immortal know what happened to them? There was a convenient *third* Immortal waiting just off HG who survived the explosion and told the tale? And....if this oh-so convenient Immortal had to run around and tell his friends about what happened...does that mean no Immortal before that time knew about the Rule? And where was this Watcher? How soon after the fight did Vesuvius!
explode? Immediately? How far into the fight did they get? First blood? Actual beheading? And was the Watcher from around Pompeii or was he a stranger who didn't know that Vesuvius erupted fairly regularly back then? Do we take the world of a frightened, superstitious 1st century Watcher as absolute truth?
Maybe it worked this way:
Rule One (No Gang Fights) wasn't instituted among Immortals until there were enough Immortals around to raise the possibility of 2 on 1 fights - ie..the few early widely scattered Immortals seldom gathered in large enough numbers to justify a rule about 2 on 1.
Rule Two (No fighting in front of mortals) wasn't instituted among Immortals until there were sufficient non-Immortals around to make it an issue. - ie the earliest Immortals living amongst the widely scattered mortals didn't worry about anyone catching the light show.
Rule Three (No fighting on HG) wasn't instituted until there was a case where some Immortal witnessed (and survived) some occasion that made fighting on HG seem unhealthy - ie pre 79AD no new Immortal would have been instructed not to fight on HG because no one knew it was dangerous? (We know they can carry a fight onto HG without danger. Duncan and Kern fought onto the church grounds, up the stairs, and into the church (interrupting a wedding) before they stopped fighting. No lava spilled anywhere.)
The trouble is that only Rule 3 is suppose to have any metaphysical consequences. Immortals *can* fight in front of mortals- it just isn't a good idea if you don't want to get burned at the stake or jailed as a murderer. The Earth doesn't swallow you up if you break this rule. Neither does ganging up on an Immoral have any un-worldly consequences. It's impolite and probably causes arguments about who gets to take the final blow, but no one suggests that the sea will swallow you if you tag-team an opponent. Why, then, do we assume that the HG rule is different? Why assume that *this* rule above all others has any other underpinnings than convenience? Every Immortal needs a place to rest, or talk to another immortal, or to stash a loved one at some time or another. Sacred ground is an almost universal concept so explaining it isn't difficult - cross-culturally speaking. Everyone benefits if the rule is held inviolate. So...why *not* start a rumor that Very Bad Things happen w!
hen it is broken and, if repeated often enough, the belief will become so entrenched that no immortal will risk his/her eternal neck to test the waters.
>We also learn that an Immortal can tell how many other Immortals are
>around, since Lorca can tell that two of his disciples are present
>without turning around to look.
We already knew this from "Double Eagle" (if not before)
>That scene is also the only evidence in
>canon that an Immortal might be able to identify another Immortal’s
>“buzz” since he knows Derek is not with them. (It is also possible to
>surmise that he figured that out by other means.)
I would would assume that since all three went out and only two came back, that Lorca knew it was most likely Derek who was missing. Derek had been expressing severe doubts just before he left and seemed ready to leave the fold. Lorca used a normal power of deduction to look "all powerful". For what it's worth, TPTB have insisted all along that the "buzz" is the same no matter who it is and no matter what sound effect is added in post production.
While this isn't one of my favorite episodes, it is pretty solid.
Wendy(It was fun to see "Slade" reappear as an Immortal )(although in general I disapprove of using the same actor for two different main roles)
Immortals Inc.
immortals_incorporated@cox.net
"Weasels for Eternity"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 18:07:55 -0400
From: kageorge <kageorge@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Season Five dvd Commentary: Little Tin God
Wendy Tillis wrote:
>MacG reports:
>
>
>>When Duncan stands, he realizes he’s been drugged, and learns that while
>>he will be allowed to leave, his guide Paco will have to stay to keep
>>him from telling the world about the Moche. Lorca sacrifices Paco on the
>>altar,
>>
>>
>
>This is where we get to discuss whether the altar constitutes HG or not. If an area is used for a religious ritual, does that make it HG. Who decides? How?
>
>
This is a tough one, and there's no real answer to that. Just because I
declare myself God and pronounce something holy, does that make it holy?
Do I have to have a certain number of worshippers to create 'holiness'?
Does the taking of human life impact whether or not something is "holy",
possibly negating whatever aura (assuming that the the consequences of
killing on holy ground, for immortals, are tangible and dire) effects an
immortal battle? That makes a small amount of sense, since it is
consistent with the idea that holy ground is the one place where
immortals are *not* allowed to kill.
>Since I find it so ridiculous, I choose to put it into the same category as Dark Quickenings. Joe speaks of the *legend* about Mt. Vesuvius (just as he speaks of rumors of DQs) so there is no need to accept it as Truth.
>
>
I have do disagree that the DQ was not real, but we've debated that
before, so there's no need to rehash it now. I tend to agree that the
use of Mt. Vesuvius as potentially caused by an Immortal battle was a
poor choice.
>Why would they put a brand new recruit- one with zero training- into the field? It was clear from many past episodes that Watchers were trained - sometimes for years before being given a field assignment. The fact that Bell knew Derek makes him an unlikely candidate for being Derek's Watcher- unless Joe has instituted a policy whereby all Watchers are now buddy-buddy with their Immortal. If Derek is with Carl, why wouldn't Carl's Watcher keep track of Derek until he went out on his own?
>
>
There is a chronicle entry that talks about that circumstance - that
Bell was on temporary assignment until he could be relocated to Geneva
for training.
>
>
>>
>>“Faith, Joe. Faith.”
>>
>>
>
>This struck me as weak, because, obviously, it is entirely possible (in the HL universe) that men (or women) who claimed god-like powers were, in fact, Immortals. People walking through fire unharmed, people living hundreds of years, people rising from the dead...all were just as easily Immortals as saints or chosen ones or prophets. A better argument would have been that one should look at the message and not the messenger- if the message resonates with the people..if the ideas were good... if the power of the words was still strong after thousands of years- what does it matter if the prophet was Immortal or human?
>
>
Good point, and your argument is a much better one than the one that was
made, but that would have implied that perhaps Jesus was an Immortal and
not the Son of God - which would have offended a whole lot of people. I
don't really blame them for not being willing to take that risk.
>
>
>
>
(snipping a long discourse on why holy ground is only a rule, and the
notion that Bad Things Will Happen if it is broken is a convenient rumor
told to control behavior (similar to "someday your face will freeze like
that...").)
>
>
>
>>We also learn that an Immortal can tell how many other Immortals are
>>around, since Lorca can tell that two of his disciples are present
>>without turning around to look.
>>
>>
>
>We already knew this from "Double Eagle" (if not before)
>
>
Hmm. Are you talking about O'Brady's sneezing? That didn't seem like
quite the same thing, to me, but I suppose it could be interpreted that way.
Fun comments!
MacG
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End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 3 Oct 2004 to 4 Oct 2004 (#2004-184)
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