HIGHLA-L Digest - 1 Oct 2004 to 3 Oct 2004 (#2004-183)
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Sun, 3 Oct 2004 22:00:05 -0400
There are 6 messages totalling 463 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Season Five dvd Commentary: Little Tin God (2)
2. CAH/Rev6:8 DVD commentary question (4)
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Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 23:29:16 -0400
From: kageorge <kageorge@erols.com>
Subject: Season Five dvd Commentary: Little Tin God
Once more, into the void....
Web version of commentary, w/screen captures, at:
http://www.wordsmiths.net/MacGeorge/episodes/Season5/LittleTinGod.htm
COMMENTARY: Gillian went to the Armand Hammer museum with Maureen
Russell to see an exhibit on the Moche, an ancient Peruvian tribe who
worshiped a god called The Decapitator, depicted showing a blade in one
hand and a head in the other, with lightening bolts all around him.
Obviously, Gillian says with a smile, this was an Immortal who came back
to life and these people formed a cult around him. The trick was finding
something in the present day that this guy was doing. Gillian says she
sent the museum catalogue to the art department to use in the design of
the show, and they did a beautiful job.
Rex Raglan, the Production Designer, says he wanted the scenes to take
place in and around the base of one the great South American pyramids,
and the temple becomes the set where the action takes place. It was
wonderful to create the village at the foot of the crumbling pyramid.
They had very little time and not a lot of money, but the crew all
bought into it and knocked themselves out to make it happen.
Gillian notes that they had a very talented design and building crew
that ended up turning down other, more lucrative jobs in episodic
television because every week they got to do such interesting things. It
was harder work, but they also had the chance to really shine and excel.
Don Paonesa talks about the visual effects they had to do to create the
village in the forest outside of Vancouver. They put together the steps
to the temple and a few huts, but due to the limited budget, they shot
the village they created, then they shot the huts individually, then in
post-production cut together and matted in the huts to create an entire
village. The top of the temple was actually a photograph, laid in
between the trees.
Ken Gord says they liked to work with directors not known as episodic tv
directors, per se, and tried to pick directors who had done small or
independent films or other film work, to try to bring a little bit of
movie quality to each show. The director of this episode, Rafel
Zelinski, had never done any television at all, he was soft spoken but
tough, asking for a lot, and he ended up filming a good show.
Gillian says she thinks the reason the shows played like “little movies”
was because Bill Panzer and Peter Davis had been movie producers and
when people tried to tell them to do it more simply, they opted for a
more complex “movie way” of producing.
OUTTAKES: They showed the villagers marching Duncan and his guide into
the village before the postproduction effects had been added, so there
was no temple and only half as many huts. Then they showed how the huts
were added, then the temple, which was from Hitler’s bunker in
“Valkyrie”, with a new top added. Then they showed the final version.
In the opening scene of Duncan running along the road, first Adrian runs
away from the camera, and is about a block away when they call out
“action” and he turns around and runs back. Gillian does a voice over
talking about of Duncan using the remote to open the top of the t-bird
and dive for his sword. There was only one problem. There wasn’t really
a remote for the car, just a guy on the crew who hits the button on cue.
They showed the original shot, then the shot of the guy who his the
car’s button then dashes to get out of the shot before Duncan climbs
over the back of the car.
For the final swordfight Gillian comments that the actor playing the bad
guy is doing a Ginger Rogers bit, fighting backwards an in a dress. We
see him get his costume hung up on a bush.
Filming the flashback was amazing, Gillian says, as the film crew worked
long hours in unpaid overtime to create the elaborate sets and costumes.
“So,” she says, “they can be forgiven for doing some of their shopping
at Pier 1.” They show Duncan drinking out of goblet, and when he raises
it, there’s a sales sticker on the bottom.
Finally, we see the scene where Duncan and his guide are captured, with
the natives suddenly appearing around them. All their spears are pointed
right at Duncan, ignoring the guide and finally Adrian laughs and says,
“You all got me and not him?”
THE EPISODE: Prologue: A choir is rehearsing a gospel number in a
church. Seated in the sanctuary is a longhaired man intently watching
the solo singer. Derek (the singer) leaves the church and is followed by
a car, then shot down by the longhaired guy. The church’s preacher hears
the shot, runs out and finds Derek’s body. We see Derek awaken in the
morgue with the guy standing above him in a long white robe, his hands
on Derek’s chest. “Rise up, Derek,” the guy intones, and tells him that
he is God and that he healed him and calls upon Derek to serve him in a
holy war.
We see Duncan running steadily along a road, wearing shorts a sleeveless
tee-shirt and a bandana, then he slows as he feels an Immortal approach.
Duncan dodges a blow and knocks the kid down, then triggers the lowering
of the top on his t-bird so he can climb over the trunk and get his
katana. Then two more young Immortals appear (one of them Derek). Duncan
tells them that ganging up on him is against the rules. “Rules?” Derek
asks. “This isn’t a game!”
Duncan knocks Derek down and runs as the threesome splits up to find
him. Derek softly sings a gospel song to himself as he fearfully hunts
for Duncan. Duncan takes his sword from him and demands to know who he
is. “An angel of the Lord,” Derek answers. Duncan maneuvers Derek over
to a cemetery and demands more information. It quickly becomes apparent
that Derek hasn’t a clue about what he really is, and Duncan learns that
Derek thinks Duncan is Satan. “All right, bright eyes. If I’m the devil,
then why did I bring you to holy ground?” Duncan demands.
The other Immortals approach, who evidently don’t know that they aren’t
supposed to fight on holy ground. Then the longhaired “god” approaches,
telling them not to fight and that, “even the devil fears Armageddon.”
Duncan recognizes this “god” and we get a flashback.
Peru, 1830. Duncan is following a guide (Paco) through the jungle, who
is wheezing and looks ill. They are suddenly surrounded by natives,
taken captive and escorted through a village and to the foot of the
steps to a temple, where Duncan feels another Immortal. Out steps an
elaborate dressed Immortal, and all the villagers kneel. Lorca invites
Duncan to dine with him. In the richly decorated temple, there is an
ancient statue holding a sword and a decapitated head. Apparently Lorca
isn’t the first Immortal to have been worshipped by the Moche people.
“What makes a god, MacLeod, but the faith of his followers?” Lorca asks,
and says that for 300 years he had protected the Moche, that they
survived because of him. While Duncan is disapproving, he says he has no
fight with Lorca.
When Duncan stands, he realizes he’s been drugged, and learns that while
he will be allowed to leave, his guide Paco will have to stay to keep
him from telling the world about the Moche. Lorca sacrifices Paco on the
altar, but now Duncan feels he has to fight Lorca. Lorca asks if Duncan
won, would he stay and care for the Moche, but Duncan says he would not
play god. Lorca says that in a week, at a calendar festival, Duncan will
be sacrificed, and his head taken so that his people will see their
god’s power.
Back in the present, Duncan tries to tell Lorca’s acolytes that Lorca
isn’t a god, but Lorca orders them to leave, then tells Duncan that his
disciples kill his Immortal opponents, so that Lorca can then take their
heads. Duncan is disgusted, but Lorca is specifically after Duncan
because he had “destroyed everything I built, everything I love. You
turned my people against me. I shall have my sacrifice.”
At Joe’s bar, Joe reports that Lorca’s chronicle goes back to the 15th
Century, when he was a lawyer. Lorca landed in the new world with
Pizarro, but then disappeared.
We get another flashback, and the entire village has fallen ill with the
fever Paco had. Lorca is desperate and deluded, convinced that when he
takes MacLeod’s head on the calendar festival, a miracle will occur and
his people will be saved. But the serving girl he loves questions him,
asking why he doesn’t take the head now to save more lives, that she
will die if he doesn’t. Lorca relents and goes to get MacLeod, who tells
him that it was Lorca’s blood sacrifice of Paco that spread the disease.
They put Duncan on the altar, but just as Lorca is about to take
Duncan’s head, Lorca is hit by a blow dart from one of his own people,
who have turned on him for not protecting them from the disease.
Duncan and Joe have an interesting conversation about how Watchers take
on identities to keep track of their Immortals, specifically describing
one of Duncan’s watchers from the 19th Century. They talk about what
might have happened if Lorca’s disciples had killed him on holy ground.
“Lord only knows what would’ve happened,” Duncan comments.
Joe says that in all their records, there is only one mention of an
Immortal killing on holy ground, and tells him of a legend of two guys
“going at it” in a temple in Pompeii, 79 A.D., at the time of the
explosion of Mt. Vesuvius.
Duncan says the young Immortals don’t know the rules and that he needs
to talk to them without Lorca around. He remembers Derek’s name, and
tracks him down through recent obituaries. Derek has returned to the
church we saw in the opening scene, and is sitting alone, singing, when
Reverend Bell comes in, astonished and thrilled to find him alive. Derek
asks why God choose to bring him back. Bell says Derek has a good heart,
but Derek says his heart is telling him one thing and God is telling him
another, telling him to kill, that he’s scared.
Bell says God is love, not fear, but Derek says the god he’s dealing
with is full of hate. Just then Duncan arrives, asking to talk to Derek
alone. Bell initially refuses to leave, but Duncan says he is trying to
save Derek’s life, and asks Bell to look into his heart and ask it if
Duncan can be trusted. After a long pause, Bell leaves, promising Derek
he won’t be far.
Lorca is back at his own little chapel when his other two disciples
arrive (Lorca: “I sense only two of you. Where is Derek?”). He tells
them it is almost time to face MacLeod again, that Derek will face him
alone and sacrifice himself. Afterward MacLeod would be weak and the
other would take him while he is down.
Duncan tries to tell Derek that neither of them were angels or devils,
that what they are protects them from death, not any power from Lorca.
Derek refuses to believe him and runs out past Reverend Bell, who
demands to know what Duncan told him. “The truth,” Duncan says. When
Bell demands to know what that truth was, Duncan tries to walk away, but
Bell tells him he witnessed a miracle and needs to know why, that he
swears he will not tell anyone, and stops a retreating Duncan to insist
that Duncan asked Bell to ask his heart if Duncan could be trusted.
Bells says now he’s asking Duncan the same.
They end up at Joe’s bar, where Bell tells them about Derek’s belief in
god, and his gift of music. Duncan and Joe tell him about Lorca and
Reverend Bell tells them he saw Lorca kill Derek. Bell is incensed. “If
this man can convince Derek to follow him, to believe he’s god, what if
he’s not the only one? What if others have done the same? Does that mean
that everything I believe is based on a lie?”
Duncan reassures him that it doesn’t mean that, and Bell insists that
Lorca has to be stopped, but Joe tells them Lorca is staying on holy
ground. “Not for long,” Duncan replies.
Bell shows up at Lorca’s chapel with a gun and a machete, reciting
verses to himself. Derek is appalled to see Reverend Bell there and Bell
tells Lorca that he might be safe from MacLeod on holy ground, but he’s
not safe from him. He fires the gun, and while one of the disciples
(Luke) cowers, another (Enrique) throws himself in front of Lorca,
taking the bullet. Derek also protects Lorca, who takes the gun and
machete away from Bell. At Lorca’s direction they leave the church and
go off of holy ground. Lorca makes a show of “bringing Enrique back to
life” but as punishment for failure, Lorca takes Luke’s head.
Duncan arrives at Lorca’s church and hears the Quickening in the
distance. Once the Q is over, Lorca tells Derek to “step away from the
preacher”, who is on his knees, praying. Derek refuses even though Lorca
points a gun at him, so Lorca yells and pushes him out of the way,
preparing to shoot Bell. . Duncan intervenes, tackling Lorca, yelling at
Bell to get out of there, and throwing the gun out of reach. Lorca tells
Enrique and Derek to “serve me well,” but Derek grabs Enrique, forcing
him to drop his sword, telling Lorca, “If you’re God, you don’t need us.”
Duncan and Lorca fight and Lorca tells him that because of Duncan, his
people turned on him and entombed him for 150 years. Duncan tells him he
got what he deserved for setting himself up as a god. They move around,
getting awfully close to the church, then Duncan skewers Lorca (Lorca:
“I am God!” Duncan: “No, you’re nothing.”) and beheads him.
The Quickening is another of those “theme” Quickenings, as the light
dances around in patterns that mimic the Moche designs. When it’s done
it is dark, and raining. Duncan refuses to fight Enrique, who wisely
decides to leave, and tells Derek he’ll have to learn what being an
Immortal really means, but “that doesn’t mean that we’re gods. Not now,
not ever.”
In the tag, Duncan is sitting on the bar at Joe’s reading a postcard
from Carl Robinson reporting that Derek “has one hell of a slider.” Joe
has his own postcard from Reverend Bell, who is now Derek’s Watcher. Joe
reminds Duncan about Bell’s worry that some of the great prophets of
history were just Immortals, and asks Duncan if it was a possibility.
Duncan tells him it isn’t, and Joe asks how he can be sure of that.
“Well, I could quote a whole bunch of people, Joe, but it basically
boils down to one thing.”
“And that is?”
“Faith, Joe. Faith.”
MY COMMENTS: Well, this episode is the first one where the fifth season
finally hits on all cylinders. It explores difficult and controversial
subject matter, gives us some fascinating new tidbits of canon and
virtually all the characters are interesting and well-played. It also
has a visually rich and interesting flashback.
I really like bad guys when they are given some motivation for what they
have become. Lorca wasn’t initially a bad guy, per se (the lawyer
comment was a bit of a cheap shot <g>). He genuinely cared for the Moche
people and did his best to protect then, and accepted their worship as
his due. That he was ignorant and misguided and unwilling to admit his
limitations was his downfall, and spending 150 years entombed finished
the job as far as the megalomania goes.
There was definitely an odd plothole or two, like why they showed the
final Q so darned close to the church, almost as though it might have
actually been on holy ground, right after they made such a big deal
about the consequences of that.
But we got some interesting new information, such as that the rule about
not killing on holy ground is based not just on habit and good manners.
There is a real belief that something truly terrible would happen. Lorca
says that, “even the devil fears Armageddon,” when importuning his
followers not to fight on holy ground. We also have Joe’s story about
two Immortals fighting in a temple in Pompeii at the time of the
eruption of Mt. Vesuvius.
We also learn that an Immortal can tell how many other Immortals are
around, since Lorca can tell that two of his disciples are present
without turning around to look. That scene is also the only evidence in
canon that an Immortal might be able to identify another Immortal’s
“buzz” since he knows Derek is not with them. (It is also possible to
surmise that he figured that out by other means.)
I loved the chats between Duncan and Joe. I really liked that whole
opening scene. I liked Reverend Bell a lot, and I thought the whole idea
of the episode was a fascinating exploration of the “what if”
possibility. The fact that they dodged the issue of whether or not Jesus
was an Immortal by having Duncan express “faith” that there are issues
and events that transcend such a possibility was a cop out, but I hardly
expected them to take a stand on that one. <g>
MacGeorge
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 17:12:22 -0400
From: Heidi <heidi@bronze.lcs.mit.edu>
Subject: CAH/Rev6:8 DVD commentary question
Now that the 5th season DVD set has been out for awhile, what do people
think of the audio commentary done for Comes A Horseman/ Revelations
6:8? It wasn't quite what I expected. Since those are `important'
episodes and the 100th, I figured they'd have alot to say about them
(especially given some of the info from the interviews on the `Best Of'
sets). Based on the other episode commentaries I figured they'd likely
have Adrian and maybe the other director, or the set and production
people again, or maybe PW. So I was a bit suprised to find it was just
GHorvath and DLetow goofing around thru both episodes. It seemed like
they were just talking, kidding around and putting things down to
entertain each other rather then doing a normal DVD commentary that
people would be interested in listening to. While they did mention a
few bits of information, they seemed few and far between with almost
everything being things that could have been said by anyone watching
the episode. Quite a switch from almost all the other HL ones where the
people doing them actually talk about `behind the scenes' information.
With the amount of information that could have been said about those
episodes and the interest in them from the fans, it seems a bit strange
that that's what they used for the DVD. Or do some of you prefer a
`comedy' type commentary rather then an `informative' one like the
others are?
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 17:10:18 -0400
From: KLZ <zimmy@highstream.net>
Subject: Re: Season Five dvd Commentary: Little Tin God
I was just thinking about this episode! I'm doing the Grand Clearout -
sorting out years and years of VHS tapes (the Betamax and tapes just got
boxed up and carted over to my sister's)(Farewell, Remington Steele)). I
was thinking that the one tape that I *MUST* keep, besides the SNL Ross
Perot "National Shoe" sketch, is the HL tape with LTG on it. The
reason? At the end of the episode, when Duncan says to Derek ("We will
show these Earthlings...") "...but we're not gods...", the scene fades out
dramatically and switches to a commercial. The commercial was the
never-to-be-forgotten "... a little more politically correct with the Team
Prayer" Snickers commercial. It was the funniest and most appropriate
transition from a TV program to a commercial that I've ever seen.
::: back to sorting ::::
ZK the Crazed Sorter (watched a bit too much Clean Sweep, I did)(this
morning's ep, the guy had long hair and a sword)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 19:27:05 -0400
From: kageorge <kageorge@erols.com>
Subject: Re: CAH/Rev6:8 DVD commentary question
They have frequently missed the boat on commentary on the dvds. I
haven't seen those two episodes' commentaries yet, but it is possible
that Gillian, Donna, Bill P., David A., and the others have already
discussed the two Horsemen episodes so frequently at cons, they felt
they had said everything relevant in those forums (fora?) and kind of
blew off the actual dvd commentary. I don't have a better explanation.
MacGeorge
Heidi wrote:
>Now that the 5th season DVD set has been out for awhile, what do people
>think of the audio commentary done for Comes A Horseman/ Revelations
>6:8? It wasn't quite what I expected. Since those are `important'
>episodes and the 100th, I figured they'd have alot to say about them
>(especially given some of the info from the interviews on the `Best Of'
>sets). Based on the other episode commentaries I figured they'd likely
>have Adrian and maybe the other director, or the set and production
>people again, or maybe PW. So I was a bit suprised to find it was just
>GHorvath and DLetow goofing around thru both episodes. It seemed like
>they were just talking, kidding around and putting things down to
>entertain each other rather then doing a normal DVD commentary that
>people would be interested in listening to. While they did mention a
>few bits of information, they seemed few and far between with almost
>everything being things that could have been said by anyone watching
>the episode. Quite a switch from almost all the other HL ones where the
>people doing them actually talk about `behind the scenes' information.
>With the amount of information that could have been said about those
>episodes and the interest in them from the fans, it seems a bit strange
>that that's what they used for the DVD. Or do some of you prefer a
>`comedy' type commentary rather then an `informative' one like the
>others are?
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 19:36:23 EDT
From: Ashton7@aol.com
Subject: Re: CAH/Rev6:8 DVD commentary question
In a message dated 10/3/2004 7:29:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,
kageorge@erols.com writes:
<<<They have frequently missed the boat on commentary on the dvds. I
haven't seen those two episodes' commentaries yet, but it is possible
that Gillian, Donna, Bill P., David A., and the others have already
discussed the two Horsemen episodes so frequently at cons, they felt
they had said everything relevant in those forums (fora?) and kind of
blew off the actual dvd commentary. I don't have a better explanation.>>>
We haven't watched ours yet, but that's incredibly disappointing to hear.
Obviously, the great majority of people buying DVDs would have never attended a
convention so they wouldn't have heard any commentary about *any* of the
episodes. So it hardly seems fair to withhold it for that reason. And the 100th
episodes and such pivotal ones certainly should have had special commentaries on
them.
Annie
"I'm back!" -- Dr. Daniel Jackson
****************
Our Stargate Discussion Forum:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/ourstargate/start
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SDJ: http://www.savedanieljackson.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 14:17:50 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: CAH/Rev6:8 DVD commentary question
Heidi--
> Based on the other episode commentaries I figured they'd likely
> have Adrian and maybe the other director, or the set and production
> people again, or maybe PW. So I was a bit suprised to find it was just
> GHorvath and DLetow goofing around thru both episodes.
They work cheap.
Nina (PW was likely too busy ass-acting for a Bliss ep; AP was, well,
probably not acting, so ... clothes shopping? um, no evidence of _that_
activity either, so maybe he was involved w/ potty-training the new pup--I'd
think HL: The Source draft scripts would make great wee-wee pads)
mac.westie@verizon.net
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End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 1 Oct 2004 to 3 Oct 2004 (#2004-183)
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