HIGHLA-L Digest - 29 Aug 2004 to 30 Aug 2004 (#2004-164)
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Mon, 30 Aug 2004 22:00:07 -0400
There are 8 messages totalling 543 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Season Five dvd Commentary: Prophecy (7)
2. Highlander Tour to France this October...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 17:50:59 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Season Five dvd Commentary: Prophecy
MacGeorge--
>>>Adrian Paul says his preference was to keep the show focused on
relationships and events, and this episode delved further into fantasy
than he was comfortable with. He liked the idea of Duncan MacLeod being
the One (and AP makes a joking aside about how he had been telling
people that for years), but he thinks the series could have lived
without the more magic-related fantasy elements, ...>>>
Me. too. It was odd to have it dropped into the series like this ep did it,
& just wasn't necessary--people who live forever unless they lose their
heads really should be enough grist for the creative mill of a show.
> And Cassandra? Weird woman.
Yes. Also--silly nails & annoyingly pretentious speech patterns.
> Either way,
> from the predatory way Cassandra acted at the end of the episode, it was
> clear that sex with Duncan had been on her mind for a long time –
> perhaps even for some 400 years. Now, *that*’s delayed gratification for
> you.
But it is nothing compared to the delayed vengeance she tried (& badly
failed at) to deliver to Methos & Kronos--after 3,000 years. Maybe Cassie's
just slow.
Nina (How dumb would an Immie have to be, to teach lethal mind control
tricks _to another Immie_ who showed powerful tendencies in that direction?
She thought Kantos would use The Voice for good? Like helping people quit
smoking & encouraging tele-marketers to walk off the nearest cliff?) (A
teacher killing his student was apparently about the most heinous thing
possible in Immiedom, & we saw that at least 5 times; we saw 3 Immie
students kill their teachers--pity it wasn't one more here. Oh--plus
Endgame--which was just a pity.)
mac.westie@verizon.net
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 00:18:47 +1000
From: Carmel Macpherson <tunnack@webone.com.au>
Subject: Highlander Tour to France this October...
Hi all
Go on - be a devil.do that thing that your heart has long desired and come
and play with twenty of us Highlander fans in France this October. Peter
Wingfield will be joining us for two days of the tour.
ITINERARY
*************
Sat Oct 2nd:
~~~~~~~~~~
10am Meet at Hotel
10am Depart Paris in bus for Etretat, north of Le Havre (Deliverance)
6.30pm Dinner at Hotel in Le Havre
Sunday 3 Oct
~~~~~~~~~~~~
7am-8.30am Continental breakfast at hotel
9am-1.30pm Touring Le Havre (including revisiting Notre Dame and other
sites in Le Havre.
2.30pm Leave Le Havre by bus for Paris
5.30pm Arrive Paris and return to Hotel
6.pm Dinner
Monday 4 Oct
~~~~~~~~~~~
6.30am Continental breakfast at hotel
7.30am Depart hotel for Montparnasse train station
8.55am Catch TGV (fast train) from Montparnasse for St Gean,
Bordeaux (Revelations 6:8)
Noon: Arrive Bordeaux
2.pm-7pm Note: Some activities will be planned for those who wish to
participate. eg. Winery tour, shopping expedition etc (HLWW representative
will escort each group)
Overnight Bordeaux
Tuesday 5 Oct
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
7am-8.30am Continental breakfast at hotel
9.00am Commence exploration (by bus) of HL sites in Bordeaux,
including submarine base (Basin A Flot in Bacalan)
2pm Exploration of Bordeaux continues
5.50pm Catch TGV (fast train) for return to Paris
8.50pm Arrive Montparnasse station, Paris
Wednesday 6 Oct - Friday 8Oct
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Day tours of Ferriere , Chaalis (Rebecca's home and scene of many
episodes), the medieval town of Provins (scene of many Season 1 eps) (approx
90 mins out of Paris)
Saturday 9 Oct
~~~~~~~~~~~~
9am Depart hotel for full-day sight-seeing (Highlander
sites!) of Paris
Quai de la Tournelle
Shakespeare & Co. bookshop
Notre Dame
Darius' Church (St Julien le Pauvre)
Square Rene Viviani
Methos' Tunnel
St Severin's Church
Place des Vosges
Eiffel Tower
Sacre Coeur
Paris Opera
1.00pm Lunch (under own arrangement)
5.00pm: Dinner Cruise on the Seine
Sunday 10 Oct
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
9am Depart hotel for more sight-seeing (Highlander sites!) of Paris
Luxembourg Gardens
The Catacombs
1.00pm Tour Ends
**********************************
DETAILS:
Date: Saturday, 2nd October to Sunday, 10 October 2004
Cost** USD: $2,950 (twin share accommodation) or USD$3550 for single
accommodation.
Note: Airfares are not included.
http://www.highlanderworldwide.com/tours/tour-next.shtml
Feel free to repost to other lists.
Kind regards
@ Carmel Macpherson
<<<@{}=================>>>
@ President, HLWW
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
France Tour: 2 Oct - 10 Oct 2004
HLWW6: 29 April - 1 May, 2005. Sydney.
http://www.highlanderworldwide.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 13:03:17 -0400
From: Wendy Tillis <immortals_incorporated@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Season Five dvd Commentary: Prophecy
MacG says:
>COMMENTARY: David Tynan says the story was a collaborative effort
>sparked among the writers, and David doesn’t remember how it exactly
>happened, but suddenly they found themselves talking about MacLeod
>having a deeper purpose to his life than just being an Immortal.
My question is....why did he have to have a greater purpose? Being Immortal is pretty cool all by itself without adding another layer of mythology on top of it. TPTB got so paranoid of any plot that seemed to advance the Game toward a conclusion that they had to create a separate "game" to heightened suspense and excitement. Instead of picking up the threads of the Gathering and having the series move toward a big conclusion, they grafted the Zoroastrian mess on to let Duncan be the Champion without being the One. Gotta protect the future of the franchise, ya know.
>Adrian Paul says his preference was to keep the show focused on
>relationships and events, and this episode delved further into fantasy
>than he was comfortable with.
Yeah for AP. Too bad his opinion didn't win out.
>Flashback to Scotland, 1606: As a 13-year-old Duncan a
I do love the young man who plays Young Duncan.
> Cassandra tells Duncan that she always knew what Duncan would be,
>and that he would “fulfill the prophecy”. Duncan dismisses her
>mysticism, but Cassandra tells of “A Highland foundling, born on the
>Winter Solstice, who passes through darkness into light, and survives to
>challenge the voice of death.” Duncan is not convinced (“Really? Is this
>before or after I slay the dragon?”), but Cassandra says she’s waited
>centuries for the time to be right, and that Roland is part of the
>prophecy. Then they feel an Immortal and Kantos appears at the top of
>the cliff.
>
>Cassandra urges him to leave, but Duncan dismisses her concerns and goes
>to meet Kantos. He seems arrogantly blasé as he takes Kantos on with
>Cassandra telling him that he can’t win. (Duncan: “Your confidence is
>overwhelming.”) Kantos tells Duncan he’s been looking for him for a very
>long time.
Does this make sense? Cassandra knows the prophecy. One assumes she believes the prophecy. She tells Duncan the prophecy. And yet, as soon as Kantos arrives, she tells Duncan that he can't win. If she knows the secret of defeating Kantos, she certainly takes a long time to get around to sharing it. That would be my *first* order of business. "Look Duncan, here's the prophecy, here's what Kantos will try, and here's what you can do to win..." all in the first conversation..not the fourth or fifth conversation.
>Back at the loft, Duncan is still wincing from his injuries when he
>demands what Kantos was using against him. Cassandra says it is a power
>of suggestion that Kantos had learned from her thousands of years
>before.
As Nina points out, this is a silly development. In a Game where "There can be only one", why would you teach another Immortal a "trick" that could so easily be used against you later on? Teaching your Immortal student how to use a sword, how to get a new identity, what the Rules are..all this is the mark of a good teacher. Giving them the keys to your own superpower seems reckless.
>At a nearby cemetery, Duncan is pissed off at her controlling him
>(“Look, I don’t like being controlled, not by you, not by him, not by
>anyone!”) But Cassandra tells him he can’t avoid his fate, reciting: “An
>Evil One will come to vanquish all before him. Only a Highland child
>born on the Winter solstice who has seen both darkness and light can
>stop him. A child and a man.”
Then why does she keep dragging Duncan away every time he gets close to Kantos?
> The past
>Cassandra enters, older Duncan disappears and she asks young Duncan who
>he was talking to [thereby implying that Duncan actually did visit the
>past – weird].
I hadn't thought about that...it is weird. Weird and off-putting. The one over-used SF ploy that HL:TS did manage to avoid was time travelling (if one ignores TB/NTB) and this does come close (as does young Duncan's appearance in the warehouse later)
>Young Duncan is sure he’ll win because good always wins over evil, but
>today’s Duncan tells him it’s more complicated than that, that his enemy
>has a magic in his voice, and if he listens to it, he’s dead. “Then
>don’t listen,” young Duncan smiles, and then disappears.
So, Cassandra, who is 3000 years old and has been practicing her "magic" for thousands of years, never once considered that the best way to avoid having the Voice used on you is to "not listen"? In all those years, she never thought about the use of ear plugs? Sheesh!
>And Cassandra? Weird woman. The whole scene between her and young Duncan
>was rife with sexual innuendo. The kindest face you can put on it is
>that Cassandra “saw” the impressive man that young Duncan would
>eventually grow up to be, and just wanted a taste of what was to come,
>not that she was sexually attracted to the younger version.
Oh come on <g> She was lonely! She'd been hiding in those woods for 400 years and Duncan was the first "man" she'd been around in all that time. (Unless she visited the crazy hermit Immortal in his cave?)(She and Father Timothy could have sat around and discussed vague prophecies.)
Overall, not one of my favorite episodes. I really dislike Tracy Scoggins. Cassandra didn't thrill me all that much either. I continue to wonder how she survived 3000 years. Her prophecies are maddeningly vague and by the time of CaH, they have disappeared. Her "Voice" doesn't seem to work on anyone except Duncan. Where once she could make a house disappear and turn into a wolf...she later couldn't do anything useful. She isn't smart enough to think of ear plugs, nor was she capable of offering Duncan any advise on how to stop Kantos - even though she'd had hundreds of years to consider the matter.
Wendy(You'd have thought that somewhere in those 3000 years, her "powers" would have given her a glimpse that the 4 Horsemen were still alive.)
Immortals Inc.
immortals_incorporated@cox.net
"Weasels for Eternity"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 13:44:04 -0400
From: kageorge <kageorge@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Season Five dvd Commentary: Prophecy
Wendy Tillis wrote:
>MacG says:
>
>
>>COMMENTARY: David Tynan says the story was a collaborative effort
>>sparked among the writers, and David doesn’t remember how it exactly
>>happened, but suddenly they found themselves talking about MacLeod
>>having a deeper purpose to his life than just being an Immortal.
>>
>>
>
>My question is....why did he have to have a greater purpose? Being Immortal is pretty cool all by itself without adding another layer of mythology on top of it. TPTB got so paranoid of any plot that seemed to advance the Game toward a conclusion that they had to create a separate "game" to heightened suspense and excitement. Instead of picking up the threads of the Gathering and having the series move toward a big conclusion, they grafted the Zoroastrian mess on to let Duncan be the Champion without being the One. Gotta protect the future of the franchise, ya know.
>
>
Actually, I think that's a good analysis. Of course, we have to deal
with canon as it is presented, but as to *why* they felt compelled to go
in this particular direction, I think you've hit the nail on the head.
>>s Duncan that she always knew what Duncan would be,
>>and that he would “fulfill the prophecy”. Duncan dismisses her
>>mysticism, but Cassandra tells of “A Highland foundling, born on the
>>Winter Solstice, who passes through darkness into light, and survives to
>>challenge the voice of death.” Duncan is not convinced (“Really? Is this
>>before or after I slay the dragon?”), but Cassandra says she’s waited
>>centuries for the time to be right, and that Roland is part of the
>>prophecy. Then they feel an Immortal and Kantos appears at the top of
>>the cliff.
>>
>>Cassandra urges him to leave, but Duncan dismisses her concerns and goes
>>to meet Kantos. He seems arrogantly blasé as he takes Kantos on with
>>Cassandra telling him that he can’t win. (Duncan: “Your confidence is
>>overwhelming.”) Kantos tells Duncan he’s been looking for him for a very
>>long time.
>>
>>
>
>Does this make sense? Cassandra knows the prophecy. One assumes she believes the prophecy. She tells Duncan the prophecy. And yet, as soon as Kantos arrives, she tells Duncan that he can't win. If she knows the secret of defeating Kantos, she certainly takes a long time to get around to sharing it. That would be my *first* order of business. "Look Duncan, here's the prophecy, here's what Kantos will try, and here's what you can do to win..." all in the first conversation..not the fourth or fifth conversation.
>
>
Hmm. If you consider the notion that it *wasn't* the earplugs that
really allowed Duncan to defeat Kantos, it was his outlook that had
changed, his belief in himself and the future through his exposure to
his younger self, then perhaps Cassandra really didn't know how to
defeat Kantos, and was hoping that together she and Duncan could figure
it out by examining the meaning of the prophecy. Obviously, she didn't
know who the "child" was until she helped Duncan enter some kind of
psychic 'other' state when he first visited his younger self.
>
>
>>Back at the loft, Duncan is still wincing from his injuries when he
>>demands what Kantos was using against him. Cassandra says it is a power
>>of suggestion that Kantos had learned from her thousands of years
>>before.
>>
>>
>
>As Nina points out, this is a silly development. In a Game where "There can be only one", why would you teach another Immortal a "trick" that could so easily be used against you later on? Teaching your Immortal student how to use a sword, how to get a new identity, what the Rules are..all this is the mark of a good teacher. Giving them the keys to your own superpower seems reckless.
>
>
I'm not sure I agree with you here. Cassandra wasn't suseptable to the
Voice, was she? So, while Kantos could manipulate others and was
stronger than she, both with Voice and with Sword, she hadn't taught him
a skill that, on its own, would be her own downfall. Any teacher runs
the risk of their student eventually surpassing them in skill -
especially Immortals who live for so long. For instance, Duncan
eventually surpassed Consone in sword skills.
>
>Then why does she keep dragging Duncan away every time he gets close to Kantos?
>
>
As I noted above, perhaps she really was dependent on Duncan to help
them both find the key to what the prophecy meant, so he *could* defeat
Kantos. Until they knew what that was, Duncan was vulnerable.
(snippage)
>
>>And Cassandra? Weird woman. The whole scene between her and young Duncan
>>was rife with sexual innuendo. The kindest face you can put on it is
>>that Cassandra “saw” the impressive man that young Duncan would
>>eventually grow up to be, and just wanted a taste of what was to come,
>>not that she was sexually attracted to the younger version.
>>
>>
>
>Oh come on <g> She was lonely! She'd been hiding in those woods for 400 years and Duncan was the first "man" she'd been around in all that time. (Unless she visited the crazy hermit Immortal in his cave?)(She and Father Timothy could have sat around and discussed vague prophecies.)
>
>
Gah! You are a sick woman! <G>
MacGeorge
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 10:11:06 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Season Five dvd Commentary: Prophecy
Wendy--
>> >My question is....why did he have to have a greater purpose? Being
Immortal is pretty cool all by itself without adding another layer of
mythology on top of it. TPTB got so paranoid of any plot that seemed to
advance the Game toward a conclusion that they had to create a separate
"game" to heightened suspense and excitement. Instead of picking up the
threads of the Gathering and having the series move toward a big conclusion,
they grafted the Zoroastrian mess on to let Duncan be the Champion without
being the One. Gotta protect the future of the franchise, ya know.>>>
Well, sure. Because otherwise we'd never have gotten HL: Raven, or HL:
Endgame. Also--the pending HL5: The Source of All Barf. Plus, that HL
musical perpetually lurking WAY off Broadway. And, wasn't there an HL
mini-series supposed to film last winter, then last spring, then this
summer? Wonder whatever happened to that? John would know....
>>>She was lonely! She'd been hiding in those woods for 400 years and Duncan
was the first "man" she'd been around in all that time. (Unless she visited
the crazy hermit Immortal in his cave?)(She and Father Timothy could have
sat around and discussed vague prophecies.)>>>
Cassie's probably the one who drove Hermie nuts. The grating sound of that
constant nail-filing sent him right over the edge.
MacGeorge--
> Hmm. If you consider the notion that it *wasn't* the earplugs that
> really allowed Duncan to defeat Kantos, it was his outlook that had
> changed, his belief in himself and the future through his exposure to
> his younger self,
Nah--it was the earplugs.
> I'm not sure I agree with you here. Cassandra wasn't suseptable to the
> Voice, was she?
She must have been, at least as it was practiced by Kantos. When she was
telling DM about Kantos being her student, she said his Voice ended up far
stronger than hers & when he'd learned all she had to offer, he tried to
kill her. The implication was he tried to kill her w/ the Voice & she
barely escaped--& she said he had gotten even stronger since then so she had
no hope of stopping him. Of course, Kronos later turned up immune to the
voice, w/o explanation.
Nina (Wonder why Cassie never tried her power on Methos? "Methos, listen to
my voice...you were death on a horse, now dance like a chicken.....)
mac.westie@verizon.net
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 22:11:19 +0200
From: T'Mar <tmar@sifl.iid.co.za>
Subject: Re: Season Five dvd Commentary: Prophecy
>Actually, I think that's a good analysis. Of course, we have to deal
>with canon as it is presented, but as to *why* they felt compelled to go
>in this particular direction, I think you've hit the nail on the head.
What a person has to wonder is, why did TPTB transplant the idea of the
Game from the movie to the series? In the first season Duncan kept
saying things like, "The Gathering has begun," but it clearly hadn't.
They could have left that idea out and still had the same show. Was
the Gathering just to give the series some "direction"? If they had
just said that each immie got the other's power by killing them, or
if no one knew why they were even fighting, that would have been fine.
But they kind of wrote themselves into a corner with that whole
Gathering thing and never quite got out of it.
- Marina.
\\ "I think somewhere on the road to reality, ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// you took a left turn." - Nowhere Man || R I C H I E >> \\
\\=============tmar@sifl.iid.co.za============||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//===Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie==|| \\
"... Daniel returned to his favorite pastime of getting shot a
lot..." - Alli Snow, reviewing the SG-1 episode 'Avatar'
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 16:32:56 EDT
From: Ashton7@aol.com
Subject: Re: Season Five dvd Commentary: Prophecy
In a message dated 8/30/2004 4:12:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,
tmar@sifl.iid.co.za writes:
"... Daniel returned to his favorite pastime of getting shot a
lot..." - Alli Snow, reviewing the SG-1 episode 'Avatar'
Good lord. She admitted Daniel was *in* an episode????
Annie
"I'm back!" -- Dr. Daniel Jackson
****************
Our Stargate Discussion Forum:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/ourstargate/start
Ashton Press: http://ashtonpress.net/
Gateway, A Stargate Slash Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Gateway/join
SDJ: http://www.savedanieljackson.com/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2004 16:57:39 -0400
From: kageorge <kageorge@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Season Five dvd Commentary: Prophecy
MacWestie wrote:
>MacGeorge--
>
>
>
>
>>Hmm. If you consider the notion that it *wasn't* the earplugs that
>>really allowed Duncan to defeat Kantos, it was his outlook that had
>>changed, his belief in himself and the future through his exposure to
>>his younger self,
>>
>>
>
>Nah--it was the earplugs.
>
>
>
>
>>I'm not sure I agree with you here. Cassandra wasn't suseptable to the
>>Voice, was she?
>>
>>
>
>She must have been, at least as it was practiced by Kantos. When she was
>telling DM about Kantos being her student, she said his Voice ended up far
>stronger than hers & when he'd learned all she had to offer, he tried to
>kill her. The implication was he tried to kill her w/ the Voice & she
>barely escaped--
>
That's a possibility, but my guess is that she *isn't* suseptable, since
Kronos wasn't (and probably Methos wasn't). I interpreted that as, once
you've reached a certain age or power level or psychic strength of your
own, you cannot be manipulated by the power of the Voice. I still
believe the whole point of having Young Duncan wasn't to tell him to
plug his ears, that's just too easy. It was about finding the inner
strength to ignore the Voice, to *believe* he could resist. Otherwise,
it just doesn't make sense to me. It also fits the emotional tone they
struck both at the end of OMTM and the beginning of this episode.
MacG
(trying to make the pieces fit, using a hammer and chisel, if necessary <g>)
------------------------------
End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 29 Aug 2004 to 30 Aug 2004 (#2004-164)
***************************************************************