HIGHLA-L Digest - 24 Sep 2002 (#2002-155)
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Tue, 24 Sep 2002 22:00:03 -0400
There are 6 messages totalling 280 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Well & truly a slash thing now (6)
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Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 13:15:47 -0400
From: KLZ <kzimmerman3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
>
> > Several well known authors, including Lois McMasters
> > Bujold, started out in fan fiction.
>
> Who?
>
Actually, one of the HL writers did.
>
> > If slash bothers you, don't read it. If you are on a board where you
> don't
> > like the topic, find another one, or bring up a topic YOU want to discuss.
>
No.
> this IS obviously a topic
> I'd like to discuss, w/ anyone willing to hold up the other side.
>
Well, thank <insert name of deity here> that we're discussing
*something*.
Depending on the amount of pressure exerted by a culture concerning
any issue (for example, women being pressured to marry by age 29 in
my grandma's time or they'd be old maids), I can see Methos
slouching along with it to keep a low profile, even if he didn't
particularly care for it. Perhaps he went through one of his
too-old-to-care-about-anything phases. We saw a good example of
his going along with Kronos (to a certain extent) just to survive.
Had Duncan not pushed him into a situation where he *had* to make a
decision, who know how long he would have gone along with it? The
whole possible slashy scenario, though, is outside of what is shown
on screen. The only scene that I remember that was overt enough
for me to believe it was Horton's rebuff to Xavier's pass in the
caviar scene, and that wasn't Methos.
Duncan, otoh, made a career of having the stiffest Scottish spine
since Illya Kuriakin (oh, wait- he was Russian), and I can see him
dying before he would bend an inch on some issue that was important
to him or his upbringing. His entire life has been a series of
fighting against the prevailing mind set of a culture or time:
Culloden and the whole fight for Scottish independence, the English
against the French, the French resistance against the Nazis, the
Civil War, which had enough horror and angst to satisfy his
Scottish guilt for decades, the Lakota against the brutality of the
military. So if he was raised as morally opposed to same-sex
relationships, I very much doubt if he would be able to put that
aside, and there's no evidence that he ever did.
BTW, did we ever actually see Duncan discard anything from his
upbringing, other than wars?
I think that part of the reason for Duncan/anyone slash is that it
puts Duncan in the role of a - um - Immortal PoRA(tm) :::: giggling
::::. Duncan knew a great deal about a lot of things; I think we
lose track sometimes of just how widely he traveled, and how
sophisticated he was. Even if he couldn't sing a note, he knew
music from Gregorian chant to jazz. He was a quiet patron of arts
and education and could function smoothly in many different
cultures. He was always reading and learning. Putting him - um -
on the bottom of a slash relationship is putting him in a place
where he is inexperienced, ignoranat, and can be seen as weak and
pliable. I ain't buyin' it, no matter how beige he got in the 6th
season. Duncan is just too strong a character to be that pliable.
ZK (so there).
kzimmerman3@cox.net
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 15:26:50 -0500
From: beccaelizabeth <beccaelizabeth@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
>> there is a line though- I dont write fanfic
>>about books and I dont make film of TV shows.
>> seems like a bit too much cheek either way.
>
> Why? I'm just curious.
> Aren't they all cut from the same mold?
probably yes. that is where I personally put a line. There are some
stories or methods of storytelling that work well in one medium but not
another. There are things about Highlander that are a pain to write but
easier to film- fights on paper are difficult. You also dont get to
hear characters thoughts on tv (in Highlander style stories anyways) and
that means written stuff gives you new angles. I guess it feels more
like bringing something new to the creation if you change media.
Mind you theres fun to be had with borrowing bits of film of same actor
different character, or different shows with the same locations, and mix
and matching them. That can get very creative.
Thinking about it I dont mean that I think other people writing fanfic
after books or filming bits of TV shows is too much cheek, IF they dont
try and steal credit from the original work. I thought up the rule for
me after I came across some fanfic based on a TV series which was in
turn based on a series of books one of my friends was rather passionate
about, and the fanfic authors did not seem aware of the original work at
all. They knew which actors were involved, but not who created the
world in the first place. which annoyed me. so when trying to figure
why I sort of decided that fanfic after books was a bit cheeky. If I
try and be logical about it then the rule doesnt work, specially since
some of the best stuff I've read recently has been shared universe
stuff, where one famous author invites others to play in their
playground. And that Niven essay, cant find it is in the boxes (waist
high all round the edge of the room). He said something like he creates
the playground and then when others go have fun there then thats proper
use of playground equipment. So fanfic writing in a book universe can
be cool too. I dont do it because... well I guess in large part because
I can imagine the authors who inspire me looking at my little bit of a
story and laughing. the bad way. if they even bothered to do that.
has been a while since I thought about this and it turning out to be not
so much a rule as a phobia. oops.
beccaelizabeth
engage brain, *then* type. gotta remember that.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 16:36:08 -0400
From: jjswbt@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
Liz:
>> > Several well known authors, including Lois McMasters
>> > Bujold, started out in fan fiction.
Nina:
>> Who?
Jette:
><shakes head> She's only one of the biggest names
>in SF these days. You'd have to be living in a cave to
>miss her - even the non-SF fans have heard of her
>in my experience.
Well...I guess I live in a cave. Never heard of her. OTOH there are probably hundreds of SF authors I've never heard of. What does she write about? I gave up on space stories a long time ago....if it wasn't repetitive technobabble (known in my cave as Tom Clancy in Space), it was teenaged heros (or gamine heroines) who always had just the quip for every occasion or who had some secret psi talent bequeathed them by a dead parent.
Me:
>>(Actually, the whole concept of LOTR slash makes me more than a bit
>>crazy.)(You just *can't* take my favorite book since I was about 11 and
>>do*that* to my favorite characters!)
Jette:
>Can I join you on that bench, Wendy? :-)
Sure. If you don't mind living in a cave. <EG>
Wendy(:::wonders if new rugs will make the cave more homey::::)
Fairy Killer
jjswbt@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~jjswbt/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 21:49:18 +0100
From: Jette Goldie <jette@blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
.
>
> Duncan, otoh, made a career of having the stiffest Scottish spine
> since Illya Kuriakin (oh, wait- he was Russian),
but the actor was Scottish <g>
>and I can see him
> dying before he would bend an inch on some issue that was important
> to him or his upbringing. His entire life has been a series of
> fighting against the prevailing mind set of a culture or time:
> Culloden and the whole fight for Scottish independence,
<Jette runs screaming into the night><THAT WASN'T
WHAT CULLODEN WAS ABOUT!!!>
Jette
(aka Vinyaduriel)
"Work for Peace and remain fiercely loving" - Jim Byrnes
jette@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
http://bosslady.tripod.com/fanfic.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 22:02:06 +0100
From: Jette Goldie <jette@blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
> Nina:
> >> Who?
>
> Jette:
> ><shakes head> She's only one of the biggest names
> >in SF these days. You'd have to be living in a cave to
> >miss her - even the non-SF fans have heard of her
> >in my experience.
>
> Well...I guess I live in a cave. Never heard of her. OTOH there are
probably hundreds of SF authors I've never heard of. What does she write
about? I gave up on space stories a long time ago....if it wasn't
repetitive technobabble (known in my cave as Tom Clancy in Space), it was
teenaged heros (or gamine heroines) who always had just the quip for every
occasion or who had some secret psi talent bequeathed them by a dead parent.
>
Complicated political plotlines and heroes and heroines
who have to make hard choices. Not too much technobabble.
Here's the official homepage.
http://www.dendarii.com/
Jette
(aka Vinyaduriel)
"Work for Peace and remain fiercely loving" - Jim Byrnes
jette@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
http://bosslady.tripod.com/fanfic.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 17:59:57 -0400
From: jjswbt@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
Me:
>>(Actually, the whole concept of LOTR slash makes me more than a bit
>crazy.)(You just *can't* take my favorite book since I was about 11 and
>do *that* to my favorite characters!)
beccaelizabeth wrote:
>but even from the book, it sooo easy...
>no girls anywhere, all the important relationships being pairs of men, I
>mean I've been reading it since I was eight so it didnt occur to me
>until the movie but really...
It still takes a certain :::cough:::::wrong:::cough:::: mindset to look at a story about men fighting a war to save the world and decide that the lack of female participants indicates that the men are involved, sexually, with each other. Why would one even consider it? Is the story not rich enough as it is?
beccaelizabeth:
>Well my mom saw Frodo/Sam from the first time she saw FotR. But that
>hardly counts because (a) its hardly subtle and (b) she been hanging
>around with me way too much.
One of my major objections to Peter Jackson's LOTR (and I had very few) was the decision to cast Frodo as a young man (Elijah looks about 14 most of the time) I understand (I think) why he did it (couldn't have the "hero" be 50ish and tubby) but it seriously changes the dynamics of the story. Instead of having a full grown man entering "middle age" who had to give up his comfortable soft life and find the steel that had always been within him...we had a boy tossed out into the cold cruel world and forced to grow up. In the movie, everyone treats Frodo as what he is portrayed as ... a scared kid. He needs rescuing, he looks wide-eyed, he cries big tears. While Frodo in the book certainly needs help..one doesn't forget that he is an adult in a small body.
By making Frodo and Sam the same age and making them friends instead of master/servant the entire relationship changes. That does not, IMGLO, indicate that PJ was unsubtly suggesting that Frodo and Sam were more than just good friends. The "slash" is still in the mind of the viewer and not, I suggest, in the mind of the director.
Wendy(ROTK ought to be a slashfest for Frodo/Sam proponents)
Fairy Killer
jjswbt@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~jjswbt/index.html
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End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 24 Sep 2002 (#2002-155)
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