HIGHLA-L Digest - 13 Apr 2002 (#2002-46)
Automatic digest processor (LISTSERV@lists.psu.edu)
Sat, 13 Apr 2002 22:00:01 -0400
There are 10 messages totalling 492 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Highlander the musical (9)
2. HL Alumni in CI5 New Pros
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 13:19:40 EDT
From: Ashton7@aol.com
Subject: Re: Highlander the musical
In a message dated 4/13/02 12:29:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
tmar@sifl.iid.co.za writes:
<< Because replacing someone, no matter the
reason, always causes wedges in fandom. Always. But I don't see why
one should automatically hate a new character (and by extension
that character's fans), or feel the need to diss the original
character (and that character's fans) if one likes the new
character. Liking one doesn't mean one must hate the other. >>
Yes, and DISLIKING one doesn't mean you dislike them only because they are a
replacement. People do have the ability to DECIDE these things based on more
than just that, y'know? And it is very insulting to be told by the executive
producer of the show (as Brad Wright did to me, specifically) that the only
reason I don't like a new character is because, basically, I am a Michael
Shanks groupie. Uh, no. In fact, up until the moment I saw Meridian (and I
saw it live, in England, when it aired), I was one of the folks telling
people to give the new character a chance. Making it clear that I felt sorry
for the actor, because I knew he had a tough row to hoe. But, after viewing
the episode and the new character... what can I say? He was poorly conceived,
poorly written, badly introduced, and, imo, badly acted. I DO hate him. ANd
it has absolutely nothing to do with the *different* issue of who he is
"replacing." The producers/writers of a show do themselves and their fans a
disservice if they choose to automatically dismiss dislike of a new character
by saying that only fans of the "old" character hate the new one. That's
absurd. Perhaps they should suck it up and admit that they've written a
character people just don't like. For *whatever* reason. (Supposedly I have
also made my judgements of the character even though I've "never seen him
yet." Uh, but I have... as I said, I saw the episode when it aired in
England. In fact, I now have it on tape.)
Annie
"Bottom line: If you're not telling good stories, people are going to tune
out, and they'll see right through the sham." -- Richard Dean Anderson 'The
Hollywood Reporter'
****************
Save Daniel Jackson: http://www.savedanieljackson.com
Ashton Press: http://ashtonpress.ma-at.net/
Fan Fiction: http://members.aol.com/pelkiepet/stories.htm
Fanzines: http://ashtonpress.ma-at.net/zines.htm
Gateway, A Stargate Slash Discussion/Fiction Group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Gateway/join
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 19:04:49 +0100
From: "John Mosby (B)" <a.j.mosby@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Highlander the musical
But Annie, you're judging a character on one episode.That's your right, but
hardly seems a fair way to judge yet-to-see episodes. It's fine to say to
say: "Doesn't seem a great character to me. Look what he did. Was involved
with the death of a season regular, doesn't seem to have a strong
character." But introduction episodes rarely work that well because the
audience is going 'Hold on...you're new...we want our comfortable old format
back!'
That lack of pace and suashing in Jonas's intro and Daniel's departure was
abad idea. Granted. It didn't serve either actor. It makes it a poor
episode, which most people agree it was. But some of the responses about the
character have been pretty annihilating based on that alone. The sarcasm
about his future in the show and role within the SGC has been deconstructing
him before construction. Yup, possibly Meridian was an indication of a bad
start and a bad future, but I'm not sure any character in Highlander or
other shows would necessarily look so hot on their first appearance.
Richie? What the hell is a punk kid doing there? He's robbing our star for
goodness sakes and doesn't really look very sorry about i. Dang, they're
after that young demgraphic, aren't they????
Methos? The world's oldest man?Gee, he looks kinda geeky! I know students
like him...but with less beer. Wish we still had
Darius. He was sooooo much better, likeable and honourable.
Later Methos? What??? He's a rapist and mass-murderer and we're supposed to
like him now? What are the writers thinking?
B5's Sherdian? Whuh? Where's the old Captain and what the hell are they
doing with that bald chick? Wacky hair now?
NYPD Blue...wait, the kid from Silver Spoons to replace Jimmy Smits? Damn
demographic hunters. Pass the remote.
(the again....doesn't Miss Ellie look different this season ;) )
John
----- Original Message -----
From: <Ashton7@aol.com>
To: <HIGHLA-L@LISTS.PSU.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 6:19 PM
Subject: Re: [HL] Highlander the musical
> In a message dated 4/13/02 12:29:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> tmar@sifl.iid.co.za writes:
>
> << Because replacing someone, no matter the
> reason, always causes wedges in fandom. Always. But I don't see why
> one should automatically hate a new character (and by extension
> that character's fans), or feel the need to diss the original
> character (and that character's fans) if one likes the new
> character. Liking one doesn't mean one must hate the other. >>
>
> Yes, and DISLIKING one doesn't mean you dislike them only because they are
a
> replacement. People do have the ability to DECIDE these things based on
more
> than just that, y'know? And it is very insulting to be told by the
executive
> producer of the show (as Brad Wright did to me, specifically) that the
only
> reason I don't like a new character is because, basically, I am a Michael
> Shanks groupie. Uh, no. In fact, up until the moment I saw Meridian (and I
> saw it live, in England, when it aired), I was one of the folks telling
> people to give the new character a chance. Making it clear that I felt
sorry
> for the actor, because I knew he had a tough row to hoe. But, after
viewing
> the episode and the new character... what can I say? He was poorly
conceived,
> poorly written, badly introduced, and, imo, badly acted. I DO hate him.
ANd
> it has absolutely nothing to do with the *different* issue of who he is
> "replacing." The producers/writers of a show do themselves and their fans
a
> disservice if they choose to automatically dismiss dislike of a new
character
> by saying that only fans of the "old" character hate the new one. That's
> absurd. Perhaps they should suck it up and admit that they've written a
> character people just don't like. For *whatever* reason. (Supposedly I
have
> also made my judgements of the character even though I've "never seen him
> yet." Uh, but I have... as I said, I saw the episode when it aired in
> England. In fact, I now have it on tape.)
>
> Annie
>
> "Bottom line: If you're not telling good stories, people are going to tune
> out, and they'll see right through the sham." -- Richard Dean Anderson
'The
> Hollywood Reporter'
> ****************
> Save Daniel Jackson: http://www.savedanieljackson.com
> Ashton Press: http://ashtonpress.ma-at.net/
> Fan Fiction: http://members.aol.com/pelkiepet/stories.htm
> Fanzines: http://ashtonpress.ma-at.net/zines.htm
> Gateway, A Stargate Slash Discussion/Fiction Group:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Gateway/join
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 08:20:36 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Highlander the musical
John--
>>>Stargate I think is a slightly different example. Here the changes are
being
made in story structure and the cast. There's no *false* advertising, just a
change in direction that a vocal part of the fandom has expressed concern
about. These changes were done for commercial reasons - whether you agree
they work(ed) or not. The further changes to come in Season Six are at the
behest of Sci-Fi. No changes, no purchase. No purchase, no series.>>>
Well, that sounds a lot like what DPP & co. whined about as to HL:TS' season
6--HL light, the spin girls, etc. In retrospect, the series should have
ended w/ season 5, w/ Richie dead by Duncan's sword & all the angst of
that--it was fitting. Tragic, but fitting. Or, they could have gone for
the happy ending & shut down w/ FUOT--whatever. Unlike the other seasons,
season 6 added nothing crucial to Highlander overall, except time & some
really sucky episodes.
Sci-Fi's stance as you sum it up above seems rather odd to me, given the
amazingly free rein they give Farscape. Different equations, certainly, but
still.
Kamil--
> Well maybe they can hire Joss to do it for them? After all, he's just a
big ole
> fanboy himself <g>, and I don't think I'm the only one that thought he hit
on
> all cylinders, and then added a few more for good measure, when he did
"Once
> More, With Feeling". And hey, he named Angel's kid Connor -- so who knows,
he's
> probably already a fan and might do it for fun. ... or not. <g> But it
sure
> would be cool if he did.
Nah. He BARELY kept his head above water w/ OMWF, & that was a piece of
cake compared to turning HL into a free-standing musical production. After
all, he just had to do it for ONE ep of Buffy, he got to keep his characters
& story arcs in place, AND his universe's magical element gave him the hook
for song & dance. Plus, he was damn lucky that Tony, James & Amber could
actually sing....
And he's pretty busy now w/ Firefly.
Nina
mac.westie@verizon.net
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 21:40:46 +0200
From: Marina Bailey <tmar@sifl.iid.co.za>
Subject: HL Alumni in CI5 New Pros
Got quite a nice surprise while watching "The New
Professionals" tonight. Saw both the guy who played
Morgan Walker in "Indiscretions" (don't know his name)
and Peter Hudson in the same episode! Wow - a Highlander
reunion. :) Peter Hudson was a bad guy again, but he's
so darn *good* at it!
Hey, Tarryn, do you watch this show (New Pros)? I like
it. But I miss Bodie and Doyle.
- Marina.
\\ "You've heard it said that living well is ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// the best revenge? Au contraire - living || R I C H I E >> \\
\\ forever is the best revenge." - Lacroix ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//=====Marina Bailey====tmar@sifl.iid.co.za====|| \\
\\=============Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie============//
On fandom: I probably need psychiatric help, but it's a lovely
madness and I don't want to be cured.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 20:39:12 +0100
From: "John Mosby (B)" <a.j.mosby@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Highlander the musical
> Sci-Fi's stance as you sum it up above seems rather odd to me, given the
> amazingly free rein they give Farscape. Different equations, certainly,
but
> still.
All I can say is that's what I've heard. Not official, but what seems to be
true to some degree at least. I can't vouch for it.
John
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 21:59:10 +0200
From: Marina Bailey <tmar@sifl.iid.co.za>
Subject: Re: Highlander the musical
John wrote:
>I'm not sure any character in Highlander or
>other shows would necessarily look so hot on their first appearance.
>Richie? What the hell is a punk kid doing there? He's robbing our star for
>goodness sakes and doesn't really look very sorry about i. Dang, they're
>after that young demgraphic, aren't they????
Actually, this is close to what I first thought when I saw the opening
credits on "The Gathering". 'Why do they need an extra character? What
the hell are they doing?' That lasted for about five seconds. :) I
realised that, consiously or not, TPTB were giving us a 'mortal's'
way of viewing Immortality. And, well, the rest is history. :)
>B5's Sherdian? Whuh? Where's the old Captain and what the hell are they
>doing with that bald chick? Wacky hair now?
You mean Delenn??
But you are right, I guess. Sometimes it takes a while to warm to a
character. (I loved Richie as soon as he broke into Duncan's shop...
which was about five seconds after the credits ended, heh.)
Still, sometimes first impressions last. I loved Daniel from the
minute I saw him, too. And he looked way different then. :)
Someone (I forget who, but I think it was a HL fan) said that
it's very seldom that any TV show sends off a character in a fitting
or happy manner. SG-1 - Daniel gets to 'ascend' (is this still the
case?), but the bottom line is we won't see him. Due South - Ray
Vecchio supposedly moves to Florida, and Fraser goes off with Ray
Kowalski (as if two years with Ray V. meant nothing). HL - they
killed off all the best characters (well, except for Methos and
Joe)! Beauty and the Beast - do I really even need to say anything?
Apparently a lot of Trek fans were outraged by the way Voyager
ended (I haven't seen it, and frankly I don't even care). We
seldom get happy endings in TV, and, really, we should. Because
we support the show through thick and thin - and we (and the
characters) deserve a decent payoff (dammit!!).
Oh well.
- Marina.
\\ "You've heard it said that living well is ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// the best revenge? Au contraire - living || R I C H I E >> \\
\\ forever is the best revenge." - Lacroix ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//=====Marina Bailey====tmar@sifl.iid.co.za====|| \\
\\=============Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie============//
On fandom: I probably need psychiatric help, but it's a lovely
madness and I don't want to be cured.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 21:59:13 +0200
From: Marina Bailey <tmar@sifl.iid.co.za>
Subject: Re: Highlander the musical
Annie wrote:
>Yes, and DISLIKING one doesn't mean you dislike them only because they are a
>replacement. People do have the ability to DECIDE these things based on more
>than just that, y'know?
Absolutely. I totally agree. People always think I hate Ray Kowalski
because I hated the third season of Due South. That is so not the
case! The third season stank, but Ray K. is a great character! I love
him!
>And it is very insulting to be told by the executive
>producer of the show (as Brad Wright did to me, specifically) that the only
>reason I don't like a new character is because, basically, I am a Michael
>Shanks groupie. Uh, no.
But you know what, Annie? So what if you WERE a Michael Shanks
groupie (I am <g>). Does this make you incapable of judging whether
another character is good or bad? I think not! I've always been a
Richie fan, but this doesn't mean I hate all episodes Richie isn't
in. (I love "Indiscretions" and "Homeland", for example, and Richie
is nowhere in sight!)
Sheesh. TPTB really have no idea why people are fans, or why fans
get mad at them.
- Marina.
\\ "You've heard it said that living well is ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// the best revenge? Au contraire - living || R I C H I E >> \\
\\ forever is the best revenge." - Lacroix ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//=====Marina Bailey====tmar@sifl.iid.co.za====|| \\
\\=============Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie============//
On fandom: I probably need psychiatric help, but it's a lovely
madness and I don't want to be cured.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 22:01:49 +0200
From: Marina Bailey <tmar@sifl.iid.co.za>
Subject: Re: Highlander the musical
>All I can say is that's what I've heard. Not official, but what seems to be
>true to some degree at least. I can't vouch for it.
But what I'm wondering is, why would Sci-Fi want changes made that
seem to make the show *less* science fiction-y? (I heard that season 6
is going to be more Earth-bound.) That makes no sense. Please correct
me if I'm wrong.
- Marina.
(John, what time is it there? Did the UK just go off or on Daylight
Savings? Because now House Invaders is on an hour earlier. <g>)
\\ "You've heard it said that living well is ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// the best revenge? Au contraire - living || R I C H I E >> \\
\\ forever is the best revenge." - Lacroix ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//=====Marina Bailey====tmar@sifl.iid.co.za====|| \\
\\=============Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie============//
On fandom: I probably need psychiatric help, but it's a lovely
madness and I don't want to be cured.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 21:11:32 +0100
From: "John Mosby (B)" <a.j.mosby@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Highlander the musical
The extent of what I heard is that Sci-Fi's proposed budget was not as much
as the show had had before and that subsequently more Earth-bound shows were
a way around this. The younger cast was to hit a younger demographic. None
of this came via any official definitive source, but what I've heard from
various people who might be in a poistion to know details - and which seems
to make sense given other info out there.
Oh - and completely the wrong list - but I've just finished transcribing an
interview with one of the producer's of the Stargate Animated Series -
coming to FOX this Fall. There will be some concept-info in the next Impact
( #125 - currently at press and which has interview with Brad Wright in it)
and a further feature in the following issue with quotes, story concepts,
production info and we're really really hoping to have some images from it.
It IS aimed at a younger audience, but from what I've heard it could be fun.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marina Bailey" <tmar@sifl.iid.co.za>
To: <HIGHLA-L@LISTS.PSU.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: [HL] Highlander the musical
> >All I can say is that's what I've heard. Not official, but what seems to
be
> >true to some degree at least. I can't vouch for it.
>
> But what I'm wondering is, why would Sci-Fi want changes made that
> seem to make the show *less* science fiction-y? (I heard that season 6
> is going to be more Earth-bound.) That makes no sense. Please correct
> me if I'm wrong.
>
> - Marina.
> (John, what time is it there? Did the UK just go off or on Daylight
> Savings? Because now House Invaders is on an hour earlier. <g>)
>
> \\ "You've heard it said that living well is ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
> // the best revenge? Au contraire - living || R I C H I E >> \\
> \\ forever is the best revenge." - Lacroix ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
> //=====Marina Bailey====tmar@sifl.iid.co.za====|| \\
> \\=============Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie============//
>
> On fandom: I probably need psychiatric help, but it's a lovely
> madness and I don't want to be cured.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 14:58:24 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Highlander the musical
Marina--
> Someone (I forget who, but I think it was a HL fan) said that
> it's very seldom that any TV show sends off a character in a fitting
> or happy manner.
Well, that's drama for you. And so many actors say they LOVE a big death
scene, so....
But, you'd been talking about RR, so I was brought up short by the above.
Obviously RR's demise wasn't happy, but I think it was infinitely _fitting_,
given the issues HL handled & the angst-ridden nature of the show. Really,
it was inevitable. TPTB had been foreshadowing RR's death (by DM's sword
even) since ep #1; now, _that_ early bit in The Gathering may have been a
coincidence or it may have just subconsciously started the writers down the
path to Archangel, but later eps (Shadows & Something Wicked especially)
were far from subtle--RR was doomed (as was DM, as unwilling wielder of his
fate).
Nina (who is really pissed to have to go _look up_ HL:TS ep titles these
days--what a tragedy to lose those particular brain cells from lack of
use....)
mac.westie@verizon.net
------------------------------
End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 13 Apr 2002 (#2002-46)
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