HIGHLA-L Digest - 28 May 2006 to 29 May 2006 (#2006-93)
HIGHLA-L automatic digest system (LISTSERV@lists.psu.edu)
Mon, 29 May 2006 22:00:06 -0400
There are 12 messages totalling 627 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [HL] HL Comix - Connor Fans! (5)
2. HL Comix - Connor Fans! (7)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 15:26:28 +0100
From: John Mosby - Laptop <a.j.mosby@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [HL] HL Comix - Connor Fans!
Here's the thing.
If there's something definitive on screen to suggest a homosexual
relationship, is confirmed (or not denied) as being there by those conncted
with the show and that develops as a storyline, then it's canon and it's
fine. In the case of Tara/Willow there was definitely a vibe early on which
wasn't forced but grew over time. More power to that.
Slash stories (and here I'd differentiate between fan fiction which depicts
an established homosexual pairing and creating a homosexual relationship for
your fiction which has never been referenced on screen, is disputed as even
being there by writers.actors, directors etc) is also as perfectly fine as a
personal piece of your own fiction, as much as writing a piece of Highlander
fiction that incorporates aliens, cyborgs and talking mice should a writer
so feel it floats their own boat.
But I do find it strange that slash fiction writers feel beholden to add
that homosexual element where it hasn't existed previously. There are
obviously some excellent writers out there, but isn't it limiting to
constantly take already inspiring characters and situations and squeeze them
into situations that its been established they aren't part of? And do it
again and again and again.
In Mary-Sue fiction, fans decry those who blatantly insert themsleves
alter-egos into situations and make themselves the key part of the story,
yet slash-fiction (no, I know...not all, but some by basic defenition)
seems perfectly acceptable when it puts an agenda in there in the same
manner. Equally, if I wrote fan-fiction and every time I did so had Amanda
and Tessa (or insert other name as appropos) doing the dirty, I'm sure
people would consider me a dirty old man in a raincoat or at least minorly
sexually obssessive. If I always inserted cyborgs into Highlander stories,
wouldn't people say 'Doesn't really fit, can't you write some non-cyborg
fiction???'
I have no problem with erotica - in whatever form it takes within reason.
Nor am I putting boundaries on what a person should, shouldn't or cannot
write. Equally, no problem with homosexuality. More power to anyone who can
creatively put pen to paper. I just find it interesting that the specific
slash fiction culture seems so prevalent in fandom when it blatantly goes
against established continuity and original intent. Surely the harder skill
is to write within certain boundaries - rather than merely ignoring them or
smashing them - and yet bring something new and emotive at the same time?
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kamil" <kamilaa@GMAIL.COM>
To: <HIGHLA-L@LISTS.PSU.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, May 28, 2006 11:15 PM
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [HL] HL Comix - Connor Fans!
> <Wendy>
> Without reopening that particular can of worms too far, I will say that
> finding "slash" often requires a radical reading of the subtext on par
> with saying that *everything* is actually about pea soup.
>
> And then there's the opposite problem - say, those who were shocked,
> or appalled, or said it "came out of nowhere!!" when Willow chose Tara
> over Oz in "New Moon Rising".
>
> Leading to one of my favorite Joss quotes ever:
> " It's the not the bigotry that offends me, it's the lack of filmic
> insight.
>
> Okay, and the bigotry."
>
> And I remember some of the very same people who are always up in arms
> about seeing slash "everywhere" here being up in arms about Willow
> suddenly being gay too.
>
> Coincidence?
>
> Heck, have the entire quote:
> "Okay, let's do this. For real: how @#$%&ing disappointed was I in the
> American public after Tuesday night? Of course I realize the rabidly
> homophobic posting contingent represents a smaller percentage of
> Americans than the EVIL GAYS they were posting about, but that's not
> it. It's the fact that everyone went nuts about it THIS WEEK, when
> this has clearly been going on for MONTHS?
>
> Did anyone see the spell scene in episode 16? Hello? It's the not the
> bigotry that offends me, it's the lack of filmic insight.
>
> Okay, and the bigotry."
>
> I feel so much perfectly sane devotion towards him it's not even funny. <3
> --
> Kamil
> Crassus: Do you consider the eating of oysters to be moral and the
> eating of snails to be immoral?
> Antoninus: No, master.
> Crassus: Of course not. It is all a matter of taste, isn't it?
> Antoninus: Yes, master.
> Crassus: And taste is not the same as appetite, and therefore not a
> question of morals.
> Antoninus: It could be argued so, master.
> Crassus: My robe, Antoninus. My taste includes . . . both snails and
> oysters.
> Spartacus
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 16:50:59 +0200
From: TMar <tmar@polka.co.za>
Subject: Re: HL Comix - Connor Fans!
>The exception in that one must read and reference other materials to
>understand it? I don't see that. One probably had to watch from the
>very beginning to get the full impact of the series ( true of most
>serials) but I don't think one had to read any of the books or frequent
>the jms/B5 forums to understand the plot or the bigger issues it touched
>on.
I agree. JMS used to go online and explain things in more detail, though.
Sometimes fans would be talking about things I had no idea about,
because I hadn't read all jms's missives. I wonder if B5 was one of
those rare cases where the talking *about* the show and the interaction
fed into the show itself? You didn't need to read jms's stuff, but it did
help to get some of the subtler points.
I love B5. Are the only movies available The Gathering and In The
Beginning? I want to get them all and haven't seen any of the others
except Legend of the Rangers (which I bought, of course).
- Marina.
\\ "And we are scatterlings of Africa on a ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// journey to the stars. Far below we leave || R I C H I E >> \\
\\ forever dreams of what we were." - Juluka ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//===============tmar@polka.co.za=============||````````````````\\
\\============Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie===========//
"You know, Kent, it's always been my policy to back my reporters one
thousand percent. I mean, if you went up there and opened those
windows and told me that you could fly, I'd back you up. I'd miss
you, but I'd back you up." - Perry White; Lois & Clark.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 10:53:06 EDT
From: Evelyn Duncan <BrandyKitt@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [HL] HL Comix - Connor Fans!
In a message dated 5/29/2006 9:27:33 AM Central Daylight Time,
a.j.mosby@BTINTERNET.COM writes:
<<
But I do find it strange that slash fiction writers feel beholden to add
that homosexual element where it hasn't existed previously.
>>
Such as Kirk/Spock. There may be good Kirk/Spock slash out there,
but the stories I've read have two characters named "Kirk" and "Spock,"
but they aren't the characters I recognize from the series (and I just
finished watching all three season on DVD thanks to Blockbuster).
Kirk's sense of humor is usually missing in the slash, and Spock
seems so weak and needy.
Evelyn Duncan
brandykitt@aol.com
If the kitty ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 10:56:10 EDT
From: Evelyn Duncan <BrandyKitt@aol.com>
Subject: Re: HL Comix - Connor Fans!
In a message dated 5/28/2006 10:58:05 AM Central Daylight Time,
tmar@POLKA.CO.ZA writes:
<<
(I can draw a perfect picture of KITT
from the front.) (Yes, I know that's very sad.) (Hey, I loved KITT!)
>>
I did, too, being a William Daniels fan and always wanting a
car that could drive itself and hold an intelligent conversation
with its passenger.
Evelyn Duncan
brandykitt@aol.com
If the kitty ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 16:59:21 +0200
From: TMar <tmar@polka.co.za>
Subject: Re: HL Comix - Connor Fans!
>Oh sure...it can work that way too. I'm sure there are people who would
>swear that Will (of "Will & Grace") wasn't really gay. (OK, bad choice
>since he was apparently neutered and in love with Grace)
Of course Will wasn't really gay! Are you crazy?! :) What irritates me
beyond belief in Will & Grace is that they play the characters like a
straight couple. Sure, they each date and whatnot, but other than
that they act just like any straight couple. It grated on my nerves,
and though I love Eric McCormack dearly, I just couldn't watch it
when I realised this. If Will is gay, have him at least not act like he's
married to Grace! I honestly wondered if TPTB for that show weren't
setting them up to realise they were meant for each other at the end
or something. Yeuch. Pass the barf bag. Give me Queer as Folk
anyday.
>I had issues about how Willow was portrayed but it wasn't because I
>didn't want to see gays on TV or even see Willow as gay. I though that
>more should have been made of the fact that she decided she was gay
>at exactly the moment her male lover disappointed her and left town.
>*Not*that there hadn't been hints that she could be gay (at least in an
>alternate universe) but it was all a tad convenient for my taste.
I never saw that. If I'm remembering the timeline correctly, Oz left long
before Willow met Tara, and Willow and Tara's relationship just seemed
to evolve. I don't think she fell in love with Tara because Oz turned her
off men. I think she fell in love with Tara because Tara was the one for
her.
>Then again, I think Willow's character was trashed more than once in the
>later years.
I never liked Willow. I don't know why, she just annoyed me. It was always
as though her sense of self depended on everybody around her. Xander,
Buffy, Oz, Tara, etc. I often wanted to smash her over the head. Heh.
>( It would have been funny if Xander had turned out to be gay
>too.)(There were, after all, hints about that too.)
"Okay, Willow, gay me. I'm mentally undressing Scott Bakula as we speak."
Hee. I've mentally undressed Scott Bakula for *years*. :)
- Marina.
\\ "And we are scatterlings of Africa on a ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// journey to the stars. Far below we leave || R I C H I E >> \\
\\ forever dreams of what we were." - Juluka ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//===============tmar@polka.co.za=============||````````````````\\
\\============Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie===========//
"You know, Kent, it's always been my policy to back my reporters one
thousand percent. I mean, if you went up there and opened those
windows and told me that you could fly, I'd back you up. I'd miss
you, but I'd back you up." - Perry White; Lois & Clark.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 17:03:52 +0200
From: TMar <tmar@polka.co.za>
Subject: Re: HL Comix - Connor Fans!
>And then there's the opposite problem - say, those who were shocked,
>or appalled, or said it "came out of nowhere!!" when Willow chose Tara
>over Oz in "New Moon Rising".
Gah. Denial can go both ways. Er, let me rephrase that. It's not only
those of us whose favourite characters have died who go into denial -
some people deny what's right in front of them simply because they
don't want to see it. They didn't want Willow to be gay, therefore, in
their minds, Willow and Tara were just good friends. Until Joss ruined
their little illusion by having them say it straight (I'm not trying to make
a pun, I swear) out.
>" It's the not the bigotry that offends me, it's the lack of filmic
insight.
>Okay, and the bigotry."
Joss *rules*, man!
- Marina.
\\"You can spend precious time marching in your prefect lines,//
// but I don't hear that drum; I'm looking for something else.\\
\\ And if you don't like what you see, you don't have to look //
// at me." - Melissa Etheridge ||=======tmar@polka.co.za======\\
\\==========Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie===========//
"What about the fact they thought we were gay?"
"Adds mystery." - Wesley and Angel; "Expecting" (Angel)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 17:11:10 +0200
From: TMar <tmar@polka.co.za>
Subject: Re: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [HL] HL Comix - Connor Fans!
I know I'm going to regret this, but...
>I just find it interesting that the specific slash fiction culture
seems so
> prevalent in fandom when it blatantly goes against established
>continuity and original intent.
Actually, to me that's kind of the point. To write something that is so
far out of the bounds of the show and yet to try and make it believable
that people might go, "Hmmm... that could happen."
It's difficult, and there are far more slash stories where the characters
just jump into bed. I prefer ones where there is a logical setup and
when the characters do end up together it follows the logic of the
story. Which is why I sort my stories by size (largest first) in slash
archives - more chance of getting one of those long, well-thought-out
setups.
Not everybody gets that, and I frankly don't care. But it's what I like
about slash. And not only slash - I enjoy shipper stories where the
characters wouldn't normally be shown together (Catherine and
Vincent, for example). It's not the slash itself, it's the aspect of doing
something the writers would not only never think of, but be unable
to come up with a way of doing well.
Except for Joss Whedon.
- Marina.
\\ "I think somewhere on the road to reality, ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// you took a left turn." - Nowhere Man || R I C H I E >> \\
\\===============tmar@polka.co.za==============||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//===Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie===||````````````````\\
"People think I'm polite when really I'm comparing them to gorillas
in my head." - Ginger
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 16:29:20 +0100
From: Jette Goldie <jette@blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject: Re: HL Comix - Connor Fans!
From: "TMar" <tmar@POLKA.CO.ZA>
> >Oh sure...it can work that way too. I'm sure there are people who would
> >swear that Will (of "Will & Grace") wasn't really gay. (OK, bad choice
> >since he was apparently neutered and in love with Grace)
>
> Of course Will wasn't really gay! Are you crazy?! :) What irritates me
> beyond belief in Will & Grace is that they play the characters like a
> straight couple. Sure, they each date and whatnot, but other than
> that they act just like any straight couple. It grated on my nerves,
> and though I love Eric McCormack dearly, I just couldn't watch it
> when I realised this. If Will is gay, have him at least not act like he's
> married to Grace! I honestly wondered if TPTB for that show weren't
> setting them up to realise they were meant for each other at the end
> or something. Yeuch. Pass the barf bag. Give me Queer as Folk
> anyday.
What was interesting about that show is that the producers
apparently turned down a (real life) gay actor for the part
of Will, "because he wasn't *gay enough*".
Jette Goldie
jette@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
("reply to" is spamblocked)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 11:17:44 -0500
From: Ginny Gibbs <red57metoo@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: HL Comix - Connor Fans!
Jette Goldie wrote:
> From: "Wendy" <Immortals_Incorporated@COX.NET>
>> Without reopening that particular can of worms too far, I will say that
>> finding "slash" often requires a radical reading of the subtext on par
>> with saying that *everything* is actually about pea soup.
>
>
> <SNERK!>
>
> Jette Goldie
> jette@blueyonder.co.uk
>
>
OH, now don't go opening up that can of pea soup, when in face we all
know the subtext is really about worms.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 15:01:54 -0400
From: Wendy <Immortals_Incorporated@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [HL] HL Comix - Connor Fans!
John wonders:
> But I do find it strange that slash fiction writers feel
> beholden to add that homosexual element where it
>hasn't existed previously. There are obviously some
>excellent writers out there, but isn't it limiting to
> constantly take already inspiring characters and situations
> and squeeze them into situations that its been established
>they aren't part of? And do it again and again and again.
Let's see if I can repeat back the answers to that question that I've
received over the years.
1) Given the state of TV today (and yesterday) there are not going to be
very many full-developed gay characters and even fewer gay relationships
shown. Most of the most compelling characters are written as straight
without a hit of gayness even in the subtext. So, if you are a fanfic
writer and if you like stories with m/m sex and if your favorite TV show
has characters you love who are not gay, slash is the solution. You
love Duncan but want to see Duncan in love with a man? Easy, write your
own slash story! Love Kirk and think that Spock is his ideal partner?
Easy write Kirk/Spock stories.
2) What if you want to write HL fanfic but don't want to create an OFC
because (1) everyone will call it a Mary Sue, (2) everyone hates OFCs
and (3) you really can't stand the thought of any female getting that
close to the man you love. The obvious solution is to write m/m slash
with your favorite characters..no females of any kind need apply. No one
can call it a MS - even if one (or both) of the male characters now
sounds suspiciously like a woman.
3) It's not about the story, it's about the sex. For reasons still
unclear to me, many women love to read and write m/m erotica. And doing
it over and over again is what it is all about <eg>
> I just find it interesting that the specific
> slash fiction culture seems so prevalent in fandom when it
> blatantly goes against established continuity and original intent
I think the rather nasty reception that most gen fanfic receives when
any OFC is introduced causes many authors to just give up writing (or at
least posting their writing anywhere public.) Without any gen fanfic
around, slash fills the vacuum since, apparently, there is a huge
audience for m/m erotica. There appears to be no limit to the number of
stories some people will read about Duncan rubbing warm oil on Methos or
Kronos raping Methos.
>Surely the harder skill is to write within certain boundaries
> - rather than merely ignoring them or smashing them -
>and yet bring something new and emotive at
> the same time?
Oh, I agree ...but then what do I know? Because the characters in slash
are already operating outside of canon, it's easy to have them do and
say things that the on-screen characters would never do or say. The
"voice" gets lost to the point that the characters are unrecognizable. I
think you could take a standard Duncan/Methos story and substitute
Hercules/Iolaus or Harry Potter/Ron or Aragorn/Legolas and almost
nothing would have to change except the names. The HL or Hercules or HP
or LOTR "universe" is immaterial, a damned good *story* is unimportant -
tossing the two characters into the whipping cream is the whole point.
It is so much harder to write inside of canon, keep all the character's
true to their on-screen "voice" and come up with an engaging plot.
Wendy(I'm not saying anyone shouldn't read or write slash.)(You'll just
never convince me that the Duncan having sex with Richie in the park is
the same Duncan we saw on-screen)
Immortals Inc.
immortals_incorporated@cox.net
"Weasels for Eternity"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 15:01:55 -0400
From: Wendy <Immortals_Incorporated@cox.net>
Subject: Re: HL Comix - Connor Fans!
I said:
>>I had issues about how Willow was portrayed but it wasn't
>>because I didn't want to see gays on TV or even see Willow
>>as gay. I though that more should have been made of the
>> fact that she decided she was gay at exactly the moment
>>her male lover disappointed her and left town.
> >*Not*that there hadn't been hints that she could be gay (at
> least in an alternate universe) but it was all a tad convenient for my
taste.
Marina:
> I never saw that. If I'm remembering the timeline correctly,
> Oz left long before Willow met Tara, and Willow and
>Tara's relationship just seemed to evolve. I don't think
>she fell in love with Tara because Oz turned her
> off men. I think she fell in love with Tara because Tara was
> the one for her.
Willow met Tara two episodes after Oz left, so that's only a short time
in the Buffyverse. Oz broke her heart, not unlike Xander broke it
earlier. Then she meets Tara- sweet, shy, needy Tara and it's love. She
treated Tara a like a pet most of the time, IMGLO. I don't mean she
didn't love her but she loved being the dominate person in the
relationship too. She was feeling lost and unloved and weak when Oz
left and Tara solved all of that. I knew more than one girl in college
who was badly hurt by a man (especially a first love) and decided to be
a lesbian for a while. Sometimes they stayed lesbians, sometimes they
went back to men after a while. That's how Willow always struck me with
Tara...as a woman who was playing at being a lesbian so she didn't have
to deal with men. The Kennedy/Willow relationship didn't strike me as at
all "real" so I just ignore it <EG>
>>Then again, I think Willow's character was trashed more
> than once in the later years.
> I never liked Willow. I don't know why, she just annoyed me.
> It was always as though her sense of self depended on everybody around
her. Xander,
> Buffy, Oz, Tara, etc. I often wanted to smash her over the head. Heh.
I liked Willow when she was smart and brave and true - the early Willow.
After that, you're right, she always seems to be trying to prove ...
something. I particularly hated the horrid "magic as a metaphor for
drugs" season. I always wondered what Joss was saying with Willow- that
being the smartest one wasn't enough? (As if she wasn't beautiful, too)
That being smart was dangerous and possibly evil?
Wendy( And, frankly, I thought she ought to have suffered more for all
the trouble she cause over the years!)
Immortals Inc.
immortals_incorporated@cox.net
"Weasels for Eternity"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 May 2006 20:03:21 +0100
From: John Mosby - Laptop <a.j.mosby@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [HL] HL Comix - Connor Fans!
> Actually, to me that's kind of the point. To write something that is so
> far out of the bounds of the show and yet to try and make it believable
> that people might go, "Hmmm... that could happen."
But that's just it. Rather than (technically) excellent writers writing for
known characters in a believable way, slash-fiction writers write their own
versions of characters doing things that they'd never do. In my mind,
however good the technical writing skills are, that shows a lack of
imagination, rather than the opposite. Truly good writers take what's there
and spin off stories that are consistent with what we know, but add to that
mythology. Slash-writers (tend to) take something that simply isn't there
and pretend it is and make it the focus. Frankly, almost *anyone* can write
a story if the rule-book is thrown out of the window and characters don't
have to be consistent with anythign that's gone before. I can rewrite
Schindler's List with a big fluffy pink dinosaur at the central character
should I so wish. I could make Jesus a camp disco queen. I just don't see
the point. Why go that far out of bounds when the common sense thing to do
would be to place your creativity in new characters or within the realms of
the established mythology of older ones? There are plenty of ways to push
boundaries (combining with other show mythologies perhaps? etc) that could
fit in with what's gone before and still provide creative outlets that don't
simply IGNORE the past and logic set down.
I absoultely stand by the fact that anyone can write anything they want to,
to simply please themselves because it's a free world and I don't have to
read it. But I can't help wondering if I wrote fan-fiction about The L World
and every single time had main characters suddenly realising 'Oh, I'm not a
lesbian after all, thank goodness I just needed the right man...' that might
be deemed a tad insulting.
John
>
> It's difficult, and there are far more slash stories where the characters
> just jump into bed. I prefer ones where there is a logical setup and
> when the characters do end up together it follows the logic of the
> story. Which is why I sort my stories by size (largest first) in slash
> archives - more chance of getting one of those long, well-thought-out
> setups.
>
> Not everybody gets that, and I frankly don't care. But it's what I like
> about slash. And not only slash - I enjoy shipper stories where the
> characters wouldn't normally be shown together (Catherine and
> Vincent, for example). It's not the slash itself, it's the aspect of doing
> something the writers would not only never think of, but be unable
> to come up with a way of doing well.
>
> Except for Joss Whedon.
>
> - Marina.
>
> \\ "I think somewhere on the road to reality, ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
> // you took a left turn." - Nowhere Man || R I C H I E >> \\
> \\===============tmar@polka.co.za==============||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
> //===Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie===||````````````````\\
>
> "People think I'm polite when really I'm comparing them to gorillas in my
> head." - Ginger
>
------------------------------
End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 28 May 2006 to 29 May 2006 (#2006-93)
**************************************************************