HIGHLA-L Digest - 17 Jun 2005 to 18 Jun 2005 (#2005-72)
HIGHLA-L automatic digest system (LISTSERV@lists.psu.edu)
Sat, 18 Jun 2005 22:00:08 -0400
There are 17 messages totalling 622 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Highlander animated movie trailer up (12)
2. Dr. Anne Lindsay/was: bi-monthly reminder (2)
3. The Eiffel Tower (3)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 22:12:01 -0400
From: Wendy <Immortals_Incorporated@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Highlander animated movie trailer up
I said:
>>Do they really and
>> truly not understand that fans notice things like that?
Nina says:
> Well, Donna Lettow
Dear Donna.... A woman who should never be allowed to interact with fans
unchaperoned.
> jumped all over me once on the old Forum
> when I mentioned the barge's name plaque was clearly visible
> in many, many Paris episodes over the seasons &
> alternated randomly between Nobile & Amadeus; she said it
> was absurd & obsessive for fans to notice such things. Is a sword
> silhouette any different?
And yet you are suppose to both notice and read (in French!) the small
plaque on the wall in "Avenging Angel" that shows that Cahill is hiding
in a museum. (Not that *that* makes any difference as to whether he is
on HG)
I think we were all willing to give TPTB some slack on the things that
just happen when making a TV series. Sometimes a crew member gets on
camera waving a smoke pot and there is no time/money to reshoot ....
sometimes day turns to night because shooting took too long
....sometimes the post-production guys were drunk. <eg> It happens. I'm
less forgiving of mistakes in some of the basics - like the barge's
name- because it was something that ought to have been checked every
time. The barge appears in dozens of episodes, someone should have been
checking the name plate! The windows in the underground Holy Hot Tub
bothered me a lot (I forgave them the well-worn path to the "lost"
spring)
I'm really really less forgiving <eg> about issues that directly
involve the "canon". For example, can Immortals breathe under water or
not? Sometimes Duncan is "dead in the water", sometimes he seems to be
fine. Does poison make one Immortal or not? Is there a Quickening if
there is no Immortal around...or not? Does a dead Immortal revive in 2
minutes or 2 hours? If hair that is burned off in a fire regrows
immediately as the Immortal heals, how do they ever get haircuts?
Viewers....fans....notice those things. To say "it depends on the plot"
is a non-answer :-)
I think TPTB (and not just HL PTB) depend on the fans to be obsessive -
except in those cases where they want the fans to let things slide.
Wendy (It *was* Holy Ground!)(It was it was it was!!!)
Immortals Inc.
immortals_incorporated@cox.net
"Weasels for Eternity"
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 16:44:08 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Highlander animated movie trailer up
Wendy--
> I'm really really less forgiving <eg> about issues that directly
> involve the "canon". For example, can Immortals breathe under water or
> not? Sometimes Duncan is "dead in the water", sometimes he seems to be
> fine. Does poison make one Immortal or not? Is there a Quickening if
> there is no Immortal around...or not? Does a dead Immortal revive in 2
> minutes or 2 hours? If hair that is burned off in a fire regrows
> immediately as the Immortal heals, how do they ever get haircuts?
Of the MANY things Endgame screwed up, I was most offended by the early long
shot of AP's in-robe morning kata, lingering on ... his scabbed-over
knuckles. Really--if Immies pop right up from a sword through the gut &
sport no scars, how come movie-Duncan's owies took the time to form scabs?
Put gloves on the boy or focus on something else; it's not like he doesn't
have other ... attributes....
Nina (OK--Endgame's nauseating editing drove me bonkers, as well) (oh--&
DUNCAN WAS NEVER MARRIED) (&, if he HAD been married, he would NEVER have
killed the lass on her wedding night) (plus--Connor GOT OLD)
mac.westie@verizon.net
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 09:47:41 +0200
From: T'Mar <tmar@sifl.iid.co.za>
Subject: Re: Dr. Anne Lindsay/was: bi-monthly reminder
>Why did I read this as "12 warehouses full of CAMELS"?
Don't worry... so did I!
All ZK needs to do now is misspell "Richie". If she's really creative
I might even whap her. You know, for old times' sake!
- Marina. (The flag waver never gives up.) (Just places the flag
somewhere safe occasionally while peeping into other universes.)
\\ "I think somewhere on the road to reality, ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// you took a left turn." - Nowhere Man || R I C H I E >> \\
\\=============tmar@sifl.iid.co.za============||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//===Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie==|| \\
"We all have our little faults. Mine's in California!" - Lex Luthor;
Superman The Movie
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 09:47:43 +0200
From: T'Mar <tmar@sifl.iid.co.za>
Subject: Re: Highlander animated movie trailer up
>For example, can Immortals breathe under water or
>not? Sometimes Duncan is "dead in the water", sometimes he seems to be
>fine. Does poison make one Immortal or not? Is there a Quickening if
>there is no Immortal around...or not? Does a dead Immortal revive in 2
>minutes or 2 hours? If hair that is burned off in a fire regrows
>immediately as the Immortal heals, how do they ever get haircuts?
>Viewers....fans....notice those things. To say "it depends on the plot"
>is a non-answer :-)
See, this is why we need a certain someone to finish the Dead Horse FAQ!
- Marina. (I'm betting she could even come up with an answer as to why
the barge's name keep changing.)
\\ "I think somewhere on the road to reality, ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// you took a left turn." - Nowhere Man || R I C H I E >> \\
\\=============tmar@sifl.iid.co.za============||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//===Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie==|| \\
"We all have our little faults. Mine's in California!" - Lex Luthor;
Superman The Movie
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 11:46:29 +0100
From: "a.j.mosby" <a.j.mosby@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Highlander animated movie trailer up
>
> Dear Donna.... A woman who should never be allowed to interact with fans
> unchaperoned.
Y'know, as most people on the Alt.tv.highlander group can testify, Donna and
I have had our somewhat loud and passionate disagreements. But I like and
respect Donna and it's interesting to note that she says exactly what she
thinks (whether others agree with the opinion or not), doesn't censor
herself to fit the general consensus if she doesn't think it's right and
doesn't call a spade a digging implement for the sake of political
correctness.
In short, when she's with fans, she acts like a fan - only one who was also
heavily involved with the show itself and can sometimes give a definitive
word on what a certain event/process involved rather than speculating.
It doesn't make her right *all* the time and it's fine and dandy to diagree
with her and let her know it, but I'm not sure one can criticise her too
much for attitude when she's simply acting like one of us.
John
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 08:22:27 -0400
From: senseirob@aol.com
Subject: Re: Dr. Anne Lindsay/was: bi-monthly reminder
Mary says:
>I now have 12 ware houses full of carmels.
Wow, that's a lot. In my experience, a little carmel goes a long way.
-Rob
SenseiRob@aol.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 11:03:17 EDT
From: Highlandmg@aol.com
Subject: Re: Highlander animated movie trailer up
wow
Thanks John
I also have had good disagreements with Donna but as a fan I think of her as
a friend. I don't know many people that would come home from work hop on the
computer (BEFORE she ate dinner) and chat with the fans about past and up
coming episodes. She did this because she was a fan. This was her job and I
don't know anyone who likes to be criticize. I think most of us do not like it.
We don't write but think of it this way. You just redecorate your home you
spend hours working on it. You think its perfect and you have a bunch of people
over to look at it. A few people like it but instead of talking how pretty it
is the all talk about the paper towel you have hanging in the kitchen and
how it does not match. I like Donna and yes she can some times say things but I
think we all say stuff, Both Donna and Gillian ALWAYS answered any emails
that were sent to them as well as snail mail. So she gets upset when someone
notices a small thing in a episode a fan notices instead of content.
Mary
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 12:57:33 -0400
From: Wendy <Immortals_Incorporated@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Highlander animated movie trailer up
I said:
> > Dear Donna.... A woman who should never be allowed to
> interact with fans unchaperoned.
John:
> she says exactly what she thinks (whether others agree
> with the opinion or not), doesn't censor
> herself to fit the general consensus if she doesn't think
> it's right and doesn't call a spade a digging
>implement for the sake of political
>correctness.
On a general basis , I applaud that attitude and have been known to be
uncensored myself on occasion <eg> . If this was about politics, I'd be
right there with her.
> In short, when she's with fans, she acts like a fan - only
> one who was also heavily involved with the show itself and can
sometimes give
> a definitive word on what a certain event/process involved rather than
speculating.
Ah, but that is an example of exactly what I was taking about...TPTB
wanting to have things both ways. Donna wants to be a fan among fans -
to offer her opinions just like anyone else. Except when she wants her
opinion to be accepted as "the truth" based on her work on HL:TS. Her
years with HL:TS are her trump card which she pulls out periodically and
sometimes, IMGLO, heavy-handedly. Not unexpectedly, she tends to use her
connection to HL:TS when criticism is offered rather than praise or to
"settle" an argument in the way that best supports TPTB. In any
discussion of "meaning", Donna's word carries more weight *just* by
virtue of her connection to the Series- whether or not she actually has
any more insight into the creative decision or interpretation in
question. TPTB can never be "just fans" of their own creation.
> It doesn't make her right *all* the time and it's fine and
> dandy to diagree with her and let her know it, but I'm not sure one
can
> criticise her too much for attitude when she's simply acting like one
of us.
If Donna were just a fan, I wouldn't have a problem with her behavior-
or if I had a problem it would be fan-to-fan <eg> My problem (if I have
one)(I don't) is that she is not just a fan. It takes an incredibly
centered, rational, level-tempered, thick-skinned writer/actor/director
to hang out with fans who, month after month, year after year, pick
apart your work in minute detail and not get testy when the fans don't
like what you produced or don't "get" your meaning or challenge your
interpretation of events. Having watched and listened to Donna for over
a decade or more (I lurk unseen in many places<g>) I don't think
Donna, even after all that time, has the required thick skin.
Wendy(Donna's always been snappish.)(It's part of her
charm.)(Really)(Snappish can be good.)
Immortals Inc.
immortals_incorporated@cox.net
"Weasels for Eternity"
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 10:07:02 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Highlander animated movie trailer up
John cobbles together a bandwagon--
> In short, when she's with fans, she acts like a fan - only one who was
> also heavily involved with the show itself and can sometimes give a
> definitive word on what a certain event/process involved rather than
> speculating.
> It doesn't make her right *all* the time and it's fine and dandy to
> diagree with her and let her know it, but I'm not sure one can criticise
> her too much for attitude when she's simply acting like one of us.
So, is Donna ON the list? Because, if she is then I have to wonder why SHE
didn't respond to the vicious attack here (well, the fact that it never
happened would be a very good reason). And if she's NOT on the list (which,
since I don't recall her ever posting here, is far more likely) then what
ARE you so self-righteously blathering on about?
And, by the way, the point was she is given to saying things like noticing
on-screen details puts a viewer into the obsessive & nutty fan category.
That's one opinion & she is certainly allowed to hold it--but it is not
likely to be shared by most fans & so is hardly an instance of, as you say,
Donna "acting like one of us."
Also--as most people here can testify, Carmel and I have had our somewhat
loud and passionate disagreements. But keeping her locked in a warehouse is
out of line.
Nina (the Eiffel Tower is for Amanda & Duncan dancing while the world
ended--not for Tom Cruise's latest publicity stunt)
mac.westie@verizon.net
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 21:32:01 +0100
From: "a.j.mosby" <a.j.mosby@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Highlander animated movie trailer up
Nina, once again proving that she doesn't need an AK-47 to start sniping...
She opines...
> John cobbles together a bandwagon--
>> In short, when she's with fans, she acts like a fan - only one who was
>> also heavily involved with the show itself and can sometimes give a
>> definitive word on what a certain event/process involved rather than
>> speculating.
>> It doesn't make her right *all* the time and it's fine and dandy to
>> diagree with her and let her know it, but I'm not sure one can criticise
>> her too much for attitude when she's simply acting like one of us.
>
> So, is Donna ON the list? Because, if she is then I have to wonder why
> SHE didn't respond to the vicious attack here (well, the fact that it
> never happened would be a very good reason). And if she's NOT on the list
> (which, since I don't recall her ever posting here, is far more likely)
> then what ARE you so self-righteously blathering on about?
No Donna isn't on this List and I fail to see that's a pre-requesite for
this thread? A comment was made about someone and, as many do on a Mailing
List, I decided put in my own 2cs given my experiences. My opinion was
invited/not invited to the same extent yours is ever requested here. Can't
quite see why that's anyhtign like 'cobbling together a band-wagon', but if
it is, I'm sure that means you've got some circling already. :)
> And, by the way, the point was she is given to saying things like noticing
> on-screen details puts a viewer into the obsessive & nutty fan category.
> That's one opinion & she is certainly allowed to hold it--but it is not
> likely to be shared by most fans & so is hardly an instance of, as you
> say, Donna "acting like one of us."
Hmmmm. Donna has in-depth knowledge of Highlander, isn't a stranger to Lists
and Forums and tends to think (rightly or wrongly) thather opinions lead her
to the best conclusions on any related subject. Nahhhhh. Doesn't sound
like ANY fan I know.
John
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 17:05:27 EDT
From: Dotiran@aol.com
Subject: Re: Highlander animated movie trailer up
In a message dated 6/18/2005 3:09:40 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
_mac.westie@verizon.net_ (mailto:mac.westie@verizon.net) writes:
>>>if she's NOT on the list (which,
since I don't recall her ever posting here, is far more likely) then what
ARE you so self-righteously blathering on about?
So should one only defend those being attacked when they are around to hear
it? Donna is/was feisty that's for sure, and she might have wanted a tougher
hide at times, and you don't /didn't want to get on the wrong side of her
pen, but Donna is/was passionate about her work, truly *was* involved in the
creative side, and so *did* have correct info and not just opinions about many
things, and frankly I was honored to have Donna and Gillian pass on their
tidbits to the rank and file in fandom. Her novel alone makes her worthy of my
admiration. Did she have opinions with which I didn't agree? Sure. And as
another fan she's entitled to them. Heck, I guess you are too *vbeg*.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 20:17:22 -0400
From: Virginia Foster <vfoster_042@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: The Eiffel Tower
At 04:07 PM 6/18/2005, you wrote:
>Nina (the Eiffel Tower is for Amanda & Duncan dancing while the world
>ended--not for Tom Cruise's latest publicity stunt)
>mac.westie@verizon.net
On this, I agree. The nit, he stole the idea from Highlander! I bet his
proposal was not
nearly as romantic as Duncan and Amanda dancing. The way he and Katie
Holmes has
been bouncing around, it couldn't have been. The scene with Duncan and
Amanda was
a really nice HL moment. Everything is about to crash down around them,
but for the
moment, it is just them.
virginia
(let's see, what other topics can we stir up)(Connor is the better MacLeod)
(Red-Headed Roll Call)(R-I-... nah... I'll leave the spell of Richie for ZK)
vfoster_042@bellsouth.net
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the
frost;
From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadow shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 20:20:23 -0400
From: Wendy <Immortals_Incorporated@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Highlander animated movie trailer up
Doltiran says:
> So should one only defend those being attacked when they are
> around to hear it?
Hardly "attacked".
> Donna is/was feisty that's for sure, and she might have
> wanted a tougher hide at times, and you don't /didn't
> want to get on the wrong side of her
> pen, but Donna is/was passionate about her work,
>truly *was* involved in the creative side, and so
*did* have correct info and not just opinions about many
> things,
And, yet again, someone proves my point <g>.
TPTB can never just be fans. Donna can not separate herself from her
work -nor should she have to. But she can't be impartial about it
either. She can't forget she was there and see it from a pure fan's POV.
Fans judge things by what they *see* . Donna has that but she also has
whatever "inside" information and perspective she gained working on
HL:TS. The very fact that her opinion is based on more than what was
show on on-screen lifts her outside of normal fandom. The fact that you
see her opinions as having more weight than someone else who did not
work on the Series lifts her outside of normal fandom. She may enjoy
hanging with the fans. The fans may enjoy hanging with her. But hanging
with the fans doesn't make you a fan- any more than hanging with TPTB
makes you a PTB.
>and frankly I was honored to have Donna and Gillian
Honored? Interesting word. I enjoyed hearing the tidbits. I didn't feel
"honored" since that implies, to me, a level of noblesse oblige that
doesn't fits too well with TV writers/production assistants and fans.
> pass on their tidbits to the rank and file in fandom.
So ... there are levels of fans? We are rank and file and Donna
is....what...inner circle? <VEG>
Wendy (Inner crop circles?)
Immortals Inc.
immortals_incorporated@cox.net
"Weasels for Eternity"
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 20:24:31 EDT
From: Dotiran@aol.com
Subject: Re: Highlander animated movie trailer up
In a message dated 6/18/2005 7:22:07 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Immortals_Incorporated@COX.NET writes:
>>>So ... there are levels of fans? We are rank and file and Donna
is....what...inner circle? <VEG>
Absolutely true. And I don't say that disparagingly either.
And as for being honored by her/their presence, I consider people of great
talent, especially writers, worthy of honor. Just call me old fashioned.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 21:02:44 -0400
From: Sandy Fields <diamonique@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: The Eiffel Tower
At 08:17 PM 6/18/2005, Virginia Foster wrote:
>(let's see, what other topics can we stir up)(Connor is the better MacLeod)
>(Red-Headed Roll Call)(R-I-... nah... I'll leave the spell of Richie for ZK)
I ride Silas!
-- S
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 21:16:45 EDT
From: Highlandmg@aol.com
Subject: Re: The Eiffel Tower
Hi
Goodness we woke up Sandy. Tom is a fool and acts like one. I happened to
see him on Oprah. He does not love this lady. I bet this is a typical Hollywood
wedding a year or two. Tom is One of the boys I believe. No one will take
away the magic of Duncan and Amanda on top of the Eiffel Tower. Once Tom's
movie is over and he has half of this poor girl's money in his so called church
he will dump her. Please no flames I had to deal with an old famous troll
tonight on other list
Mary
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2005 15:53:08 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Highlander animated movie trailer up
John--
> Nina, once again proving that she doesn't need an AK-47 to start
> sniping...
I have an AK-47. Doesn't everyone? (It's the new pepper spray.)
me before--
>> So, is Donna ON the list? Because, if she is then I have to wonder why
>> SHE didn't respond to the vicious attack here (well, the fact that it
>> never happened would be a very good reason). And if she's NOT on the
>> list (which, since I don't recall her ever posting here, is far more
>> likely) then what ARE you so self-righteously blathering on about?
John--
> No Donna isn't on this List and I fail to see that's a pre-requesite for
> this thread?
Not for the thread--but common sense dictates there should have been at
attack prior to such a stalwart defence. And, since Donna isn't even HERE,
she could have hardly have misconstrued what was said about her as an
attack. Only you could do that....
> Can't quite see why that's anyhtign like 'cobbling together a band-wagon',
> but if it is, I'm sure that means you've got some circling already.
FYI--covered wagons circle (not that it helped much on Into the West last
night). Bandwagons just parade in gaudy fashion down the street, blaring all
the while.
> Hmmmm. Donna has in-depth knowledge of Highlander, isn't a stranger to
> Lists and Forums and tends to think (rightly or wrongly) thather opinions
> lead her to the best conclusions on any related subject. Nahhhhh.
> Doesn't sound like ANY fan I know.
Donna's not a fan. What she has to offer is exactly the fact she was
attached in a minor way to HL PTB; she's on _their_ side of a line that will
always exist between fans & TPTB. And when the going gets rough, she
scurries over to huddle w/ them. Not that there's anything wrong w/
that--it's where she belongs. Because she's not a fan.
Rottie (after saying worse about Donna than anyone previously)--
>>>and frankly I was honored to have Donna and Gillian pass on their
tidbits to the rank and file in fandom>>>
That is wrong in SO many ways.... But it does capture the air Donna had on
the old forum.
Nina (FREE Katie!) (FREE Carmel!)
mac.westie@verizon.net
------------------------------
End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 17 Jun 2005 to 18 Jun 2005 (#2005-72)
**************************************************************