HIGHLA-L Digest - 6 Mar 2005 to 7 Mar 2005 (#2005-25)
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Mon, 7 Mar 2005 22:00:06 -0500
There are 2 messages totalling 358 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Season Six DVD Commentary: Avatar (2)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 11:43:11 -0500
From: Wendy <Immortals_Incorporated@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Season Six DVD Commentary: Avatar
Everyone knows how much I loath this episode -along with its bracketing
companion episodes. Years and distance and intervening events have not
done much to cool the white hot fire of my hatred.
McG comments:
> Unfortunately, in that thread there seems to me to be some messianic
> message underlying this episode, where faith in one person’s
> goodness is relied upon to defeat a godlike evil power that cannot
>be seen.
I'd argue that the messianic message in not "underlying" at all but is
spread over these episodes with a wide trowel.
>This
> isn’t a theme that I like at all, frankly, since Duncan’s strongest
> appeal is that he is human, vulnerable and fallible, that he makes
> mistakes but can learn from them, can grow and change.
Further, making the millennial champion undercuts , IMGLO, so much of
what we saw Duncan go through in the past. From the time he took the
hermit's head, he was the ordained Champion of Light. So...we are left
to wonder...is the Game nothing more than a training ground for
Champions? Did "fate" conspire to put him through just the right paces
to produce a Champion capable of fighting Ahriman when the time came?
Was each victory and loss carefully calculated? Did Duncan learn about
life and love and loss randomly according to his own nature over 400
years or was he lead by the nose through a set of exercises designed to
teach him specific lessons? How much of what we love about Duncan is
just Duncan being Duncan and how much is now attributable to him being
the Champion?
> As David A.
> intimated, I think that the events of the AAA arc, taken as a whole,
> were intended to push DMotMC past the heroic stereotype and
> into a more introspective place where he didn’t have to live up to the
> expectations (his own or others’) of being caretaker to the world.
This strikes me as absurd. How does making Duncan the millennial
champion charged with defeating the millennial demon for the fate of the
world push him past the heroic stereotype? It *is* the friggin' heroic
stereotype! If being the one and only person capable of saving the world
from Ahriman doesn't make you caretaker of the world, what does? Sure
*after* the fact, Duncan seemed to act as if his job was done....and
that lasted all of about 4 episodes. You can not tell me that, had HL:TS
gone on for another season or two that Duncan would have ceased saving
widows and orphans and whacking bad guys. As it is, I didn't get the
feeling that, when Duncan walked off into the night after "TB/NTB," he
was out of the hero business. ...and if he was...then I go back to my
earlier point. If everything in the Series was designed (retrospectively
of course) to make Duncan into the Champion and once the Big Event was
over, he could simply quit being what he was before (good, conflicted,
noble, stiff necked, judgmental, caring, passionate, and occasionally
reckless) then... we didn't really know Duncan at all...and maybe
wouldn't want to know him now.
> On the other hand, the portrayal of Big Evil was nicely done for
> episodic television, especially in the use of Sophie Baines,
> who worked well as a personification of decency and
> innocence
And, see, I just wanted her dead.
>(although I found her brother unconvincing,
>with his lower-class English accent which was
> inexplicably totally different from hers).
By that point in the series, I was so use to people with differing
accents that I just ignored it. He was, however, an annoying character
regardless of accent<g>
>Horton makes a
> great Ahriman
> and I thought they managed to use some simple plot devices relatively
> effectively to convey that Ahriman was an entity of great power that
> operated virtually invisibly in the world
Ahriman may have had great power but it was severely limited in scope.
He could manipulate dead things apparently - since he could animate
Sophie (or is the entire Sophie episode one of Ahriman's illusions) ?
He could make you see dead people (again, was Sophie *there* or was
everyone involved just seeing an illusion?) . He seemed to be able to
make some things catch fire. he didn't seem able to catch and kill
Landry until after he warned Duncan. (Did Ahriman walk to Paris from
Libya while Landry hopped a plane?) He didn't seem willing or able to
call down hordes of locust or boiling rain, blow up buildings or wreck
trains. He could conjure gibbering dwarves (Oh, the horror!) and make
normal white Highlander fog turn into evil red fog. He could torment Joe
(who resists through strength of will) and Duncan (who resists through
strength of "I can't hear you!") This is not the scariest demon I've
ever heard of. Not to say he couldn't have eventually done some damage-
but so could dumping a load of LSD into the Paris water supply.
>(although the whole
> red/white rose bit was hackneyed and overused).
Please, let's not talk about the bleeding roses, OK. Just...not.
> In my opinion, if they had had PW available for the story it
> would have been completely different and probably much,
>much stronger because it would have involved more
> character and relationship development and
> interaction, which is HL’s strong suit. But that’s a ‘coulda
> been’ that we’ll never see. Too bad.
The question is...what would Methos' presence have added - assuming the
basic storyline was kept the same? I suppose we could have found out
that Methos was the Champion 2000 years ago- although that would mess up
his timeline and totally change his character. He could have acted as a
teacher to Duncan but what would he have taught him? He may, or may
not, be a better swordsman than Duncan but it was already decided that
swords weren't the answer. Methos isn't "in" to calming Eastern
philosophy so- no help there. Words of encouragement? From Methos?
Could Methos have taught Duncan to accept his "Sh*t happens" philosophy?
Can you really see Duncan considering the possibility of a 1000 year
reign by a demon and saying "Oh well, civilizations rise and fall...what
is important is that *I* survive."? What we probably would have gotten
was more of Methos and Joe discussing how nuts Duncan had become or
wondering what they were going to do when he slide totally over the
edge. How many more scenes of Methos confronting Duncan over his
outlandish actions and beliefs could we have stood?
Once the decision was made to base the plot on a *real* demon and have
Duncan be a *real* avatar of Good, then the supporting players were of
little consequence. As it was, I think Methos' decision to leave was in
perfect keeping with everything we knew about Methos. He had already
helped Duncan through one spiritual crisis and almost lost his head
doing it. Duncan was much more deeply delusional and dangerous this
time and Methos wasn't going to get killed because of any sentimental
attachment to Duncan. Look at it from Methos' perspective. If he
believed the demon was real, then he knew Duncan had to fight the battle
alone without the distraction of worrying about his friends. If Methos
thought it was all hooey and that Duncan was insane, then 5000 years of
survival instincts said to get as far away as you can.
Now...if the entire plot would have been different had PW been
available, that is a different question. What might the writers done
with the *idea* of a demon and a millennial challenge if they had had PW
to play with for all three episodes? I liked the concept of some
Immortal (or mortal for that matter) trying to convince the world that
the end was pretty well nigh. The trouble begins with TPTB's idea that
each season-ender had to "top" the season before. Each villain had to be
bigger. Each danger had to be more monumental. By Season 5, they
apparently thought that the only challenge Duncan hadn't faced was a
true god (demon). Faced with the possible end of the series, TPTB
obviously wanted to go out with a bang (or "thud" if you count the sound
of Richie's head hitting the floor<eg>). Rather unexpectedly given a
6th season (with the well known spin-off girl limitations), they were
stuck. They had to move Duncan off to the side for 4/5 episodes. They
had no PW. They had started the whole Ahriman mess...they had to finish
it. I tend to think that the next episode ("Armageddon") shows the signs
of writers backed into a corner with no way out. They threw everything
but the kitchen sink into it...katas, dwarves, red ball, singing bowls,
fog, hovering demons , more katas, droning voice-overs, and did I
mention dwarves? . Huge build-up ... wimpy almost nonsensical pay-off.
Then it was just ... over. Duncan breaks out the beige clothes and life
goes on. He puts the sword away (been there, done that: see "They Also
Serve") He rattles a few headboards. He takes a few heads. He fights
one more K'immie from his checkered past, has the ubiquitous "It's a
Wonderful Life" moment (shouldn't having been the Millennial Champion
suggested to him that his life had meaning and purpose and that the
world was better off with him in it?) and saves the day one more time.
Cue more fog -white, not red - the end.
Bitter? No...I'm not bitter.
Wendy (I suppose the writers would be happy to know that after almost 10
years, these episodes still generate so much emotion.)(Even if that
emotion is a burning festering hatred.)
Immortals Inc.
immortals_incorporated@cox.net
"Weasels for Eternity"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 14:55:45 -0500
From: kageorge <kageorge@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Season Six DVD Commentary: Avatar
Wendy wrote:
>Everyone knows how much I loath this episode -along with its bracketing
>companion episodes. Years and distance and intervening events have not
>done much to cool the white hot fire of my hatred.
>
>
Ah, I knew this would bring the AAA-haters out of the woodwork. <g> I
obviously don't hate the episodes the way some folks do, but then I'm
less bothered by inconsistencies in HL canon (the HL universe is rife
with inconsistencies). I choose to incorporate those things that make
sense to me and ignore that which does not, whenever possible.
(snip comments where we basically agree)
> Further, making the millennial champion undercuts , IMGLO, so much of
>
>what we saw Duncan go through in the past. From the time he took the
>hermit's head, he was the ordained Champion of Light. So...we are left
>to wonder...is the Game nothing more than a training ground for
>Champions? Did "fate" conspire to put him through just the right paces
>to produce a Champion capable of fighting Ahriman when the time came?
>Was each victory and loss carefully calculated? Did Duncan learn about
>life and love and loss randomly according to his own nature over 400
>years or was he lead by the nose through a set of exercises designed to
>teach him specific lessons? How much of what we love about Duncan is
>just Duncan being Duncan and how much is now attributable to him being
>the Champion?
>
>
Good questions all. And that speaks to Duncan's reiterated insistence
ever since he heard about the prophesy that he doesn't believe in
preordained Fate. So which is it, you might well ask - was he destined
since birth to fight this Evil, or was he just a possible candidate - IF
he turned out to be a decent guy? Or he could chose not to fight at
all, to walk away. Would the world be so different? (The original
premise was that, yes, it was a terrible place, but that can be ignored
since it never happened.) I think Duncan is just Duncan, and that
forces push and pull him hither thither and yon, but that his choices
are his own.
>
>
>>As David A.
>>intimated, I think that the events of the AAA arc, taken as a whole,
>>were intended to push DMotMC past the heroic stereotype and
>>into a more introspective place where he didn’t have to live up to the
>>expectations (his own or others’) of being caretaker to the world.
>>
>>
>
>This strikes me as absurd. How does making Duncan the millennial
>champion charged with defeating the millennial demon for the fate of the
>world push him past the heroic stereotype? It *is* the friggin' heroic
>stereotype! If being the one and only person capable of saving the world
>from Ahriman doesn't make you caretaker of the world, what does? Sure
>*after* the fact, Duncan seemed to act as if his job was done....and
>that lasted all of about 4 episodes. You can not tell me that, had HL:TS
>gone on for another season or two that Duncan would have ceased saving
>widows and orphans and whacking bad guys. As it is, I didn't get the
>feeling that, when Duncan walked off into the night after "TB/NTB," he
>was out of the hero business. ...and if he was...then I go back to my
>earlier point. If everything in the Series was designed (retrospectively
>of course) to make Duncan into the Champion and once the Big Event was
>over, he could simply quit being what he was before (good, conflicted,
>noble, stiff necked, judgmental, caring, passionate, and occasionally
>reckless) then... we didn't really know Duncan at all...and maybe
>wouldn't want to know him now.
>
>
I got the sense throughout Season Six (or Sucks, as it is affectionately
known by some), that he is far more reluctant to judge others, or to act
at all precipitously. He hangs back, lets people make their own
decisions, doesn't try to seek justice or conflict unless it is forced
on him by circumstance. That is what I mean by no longer feeling like
he is caretaker to the world.
(snip)
>>would have been completely different and probably much,
>>much stronger because it would have involved more
>>character and relationship development and
>>interaction, which is HL’s strong suit. But that’s a ‘coulda
>>been’ that we’ll never see. Too bad.
>>
>>
>
>The question is...what would Methos' presence have added - assuming the
>basic storyline was kept the same? I suppose we could have found out
>that Methos was the Champion 2000 years ago- although that would mess up
>his timeline and totally change his character. He could have acted as a
>teacher to Duncan but what would he have taught him? He may, or may
>not, be a better swordsman than Duncan but it was already decided that
>swords weren't the answer. Methos isn't "in" to calming Eastern
>philosophy so- no help there. Words of encouragement? From Methos?
>Could Methos have taught Duncan to accept his "Sh*t happens" philosophy?
>Can you really see Duncan considering the possibility of a 1000 year
>reign by a demon and saying "Oh well, civilizations rise and fall...what
>is important is that *I* survive."? What we probably would have gotten
>was more of Methos and Joe discussing how nuts Duncan had become or
>wondering what they were going to do when he slide totally over the
>edge. How many more scenes of Methos confronting Duncan over his
>outlandish actions and beliefs could we have stood?
>
>
Speculation about what his reaction might have been to learning that
Ahriman was real is worth thinking about. And was he lying about not
believing in the possibility of the reality of Ahirman?
>(snip)
>
>Look at it from Methos' perspective. If he
>believed the demon was real, then he knew Duncan had to fight the battle
>alone without the distraction of worrying about his friends. If Methos
>thought it was all hooey and that Duncan was insane, then 5000 years of
>survival instincts said to get as far away as you can.
>
>
Good point.
>The trouble begins with TPTB's idea that
>each season-ender had to "top" the season before. Each villain had to be
>bigger. Each danger had to be more monumental. By Season 5, they
>apparently thought that the only challenge Duncan hadn't faced was a
>true god (demon). Faced with the possible end of the series, TPTB
>obviously wanted to go out with a bang (or "thud" if you count the sound
>of Richie's head hitting the floor<eg>).
>
(ouch) <g>
>Rather unexpectedly given a
>6th season (with the well known spin-off girl limitations), they were
>stuck. They had to move Duncan off to the side for 4/5 episodes. They
>had no PW. They had started the whole Ahriman mess...they had to finish
>it. I tend to think that the next episode ("Armageddon") shows the signs
>of writers backed into a corner with no way out. They threw everything
>but the kitchen sink into it...katas, dwarves, red ball, singing bowls,
>fog, hovering demons , more katas, droning voice-overs, and did I
>mention dwarves? . Huge build-up ... wimpy almost nonsensical pay-off.
>Then it was just ... over. Duncan breaks out the beige clothes and life
>goes on. He puts the sword away (been there, done that: see "They Also
>Serve") He rattles a few headboards. He takes a few heads. He fights
>one more K'immie from his checkered past, has the ubiquitous "It's a
>Wonderful Life" moment (shouldn't having been the Millennial Champion
>suggested to him that his life had meaning and purpose and that the
>world was better off with him in it?) and saves the day one more time.
>Cue more fog -white, not red - the end.
>
>Bitter? No...I'm not bitter.
>
>Wendy (I suppose the writers would be happy to know that after almost 10
>years, these episodes still generate so much emotion.)(Even if that
>emotion is a burning festering hatred.)
>
>
But they kept you going for five seasons - enough to develop a real
appreciation for the characters. That they muddled/botched/butchered
the last season, in your opinion, doesn't - in my opinion - diminish the
quality of the rest of what we have seen. What I try to remember is
that there was an intent - however unrealized or badly done - that
Duncan continue to grow and change as a character, and they do try to
demonstrate that in episodes like Sins of the Father and Diplomatic
Immunity. That continued capacity for change keeps me interested.
MacG
------------------------------
End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 6 Mar 2005 to 7 Mar 2005 (#2005-25)
************************************************************