HIGHLA-L Digest - 30 Dec 2004 to 3 Jan 2005 (#2005-1)
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Mon, 3 Jan 2005 22:00:03 -0500
There are 3 messages totalling 471 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Season 5 dvds: Forgive Us Our Trespasses (3)
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Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 22:22:38 -0500
From: kageorge <kageorge@erols.com>
Subject: Season 5 dvds: Forgive Us Our Trespasses
With thanks to Cinel for her invaluable help, the commentary is
available in html, w/screen captures, at:
http://www.wordsmiths.net/MacGeorge/episodes/Season5/FUOT.htm
COMMENTARY: Peter W tells us that FUOT was where the big question was
asked and answered. "Methos, boxers or briefs?" It was a constant
worry to PW why Methos kept trying to save MacLeod. PW says Methos,
despite his propensity to hide in order to survive, likes people. He
likes MacLeod and Amanda and has become attached to the group that has
been brought together. He'll go to bat for his friends so long as there
is no threat to his survival, but if he had to chose between their
survival and his own, "Well, I think we know what he'd choose."
Gillian H. says FUOT is a real favorite of hers and that episode was a
nice change for Liz Gracen, who had been doing only comedy in the past
several episodes. In a way Amanda plays Duncan's role in this episode
of trying to make sure two people she cares about don't kill each
other. Gillian's only disappointment was that they couldn't get Michael
Praed (or someone who had enough of a screen presence that he could have
carried his own television show), so that the guest star could be
perceived as the hero, and Duncan as the villain. In this case, from
Keane's perspective, MacLeod is the villain. The scene in Methos'
apartment where Amanda says that "if he thinks he'll lose, he'll lose"
is great because she underestimates Duncan's will to survive, and
misreads Duncan's character. Just because that's what Amanda thinks,
doesn't mean that she knows what is going on in his head.
PW says that at the time there was a lot of talk on the set about the
show not having sixth season, but that there might be a spin-off. So
when Amanda and Methos have the dialogue about MacLeod possibly dying,
PW joked that "We'll get our own show then." They both laughed, and from
then on, every time they said the line they kept breaking up until the
director and the crew were getting really irritated.
EG talks about how they just couldn't keep a straight face, and says it
got really unprofessional, but still it was very funny. PW calls it
"corpsing" (a British term, evidently) and says once they got to a
certain point, they didn't have to even say the line in order to break
up laughing.
OUTTAKES: Gillian notes that it is always a problem to work with
children or animals. They show several takes of the long conversation
between Keane and Rosemont as Rosemont's son runs around them trying to
get his kite to fly. The boy circles too closely and the tail of the
kite is too long, and it keeps getting tangled in their feet. They try
to just step over and keep the scene going, but it gets pretty silly
after a while.
In the close up of Duncan grimly pulling a gun out to shoot Keane, AP is
making jokes and the director calls him "Lawrence" (as in Lawrence
Olivier), and AP jokingly says he's trying to be dramatic while everyone
is making jokes and that he should "get a f***ing Oscar for this."
Then they show several of the takes of EG and PW trying (unsuccessfully)
to get through the scene where they talk about MacLeod losing the fight
without breaking up. The final take has just barely enough seconds of
Liz holding a serious expression before she breaks into another laugh,
so that they have a viable shot.
THE EPISODE: The prologue/teaser opens in a nightclub, with Amanda
dancing seductively with all the "beautiful people" as lights flash and
bodies writhe. The club's owner is Steven Keane, a red-haired, debonair
Immortal, new in town, asking if she knows Duncan MacLeod, alluding to
some "unfinished business". She says she doesn't know him, and
seductively invites him over to her place, only to draw her sword on him
in the parking lot. He easily bests her and forces her to call MacLeod.
They meet in Darius' church, but MacLeod doesn't recognize Keane. Keane
reminds him of someone he killed, his friend, Richard Dunbar, the Earl
of Rosemont. Turns out that Rosemont was responsible for ordering the
English to We are reminded in a flashback that, after the Scottish
defeat at Culloden, and the subsequent slaughter by the English of
innocent farmers and women and children, Duncan went on a killing
rampage, hunting down any English soldiers he could find. When he found
out it was Rosemont who was responsible for the order to kill innocents,
he went hunting for him, finding him on his own grounds in the presence
of Keane and Rosemont's young son. A filthy, scary-looking MacLeod
shoots Keane dead, announcing to Rosemont that he is "a man of Scotland
your butchers could not kill." He grimly lifts the child up to instruct
him to tell every Englishman, and to tell his children and his
children's children, that they are not safe from him. Then, in a fight
that is really more of an execution, Duncan swats away Rosemont's sword,
forces him to his knees and gleefully kills him.
Back at the church, Keane is unimpressed with what Duncan has told him
of his memory of that event, and challenges him to meet him the next
morning at the Luxemborg Gardens.
That night, Duncan dreams of the fighting at Culloden, and of killing
Rosemont, waking with a shout and almost striking Amanda, apologizing
with a bit of remembered burr still in his speech. He gets up and makes
a fire, and Amanda joins him, seductively urging him to go away with her
to someplace warm where "I can get out my old copy of the Kama
Sutra..." But he says he can't, that he needs to deal with Keane. He
had acted solely out of revenge when he killed after Culloden, and that
Keane was right, he was a murderer.
Amanda tries to convince him that it was a long time ago, that it was
ancient history, that it was war. He is unconvinced, and she quickly
gets really worried and upset, finally announcing that if he was going
to let Keane "kill you over this crap, then you are on your own!"
She ends up going to Methos in the middle of the night. (Methos: "Do
you want to knock a bit louder? I don't think they heard you in
Philadelphia.") She asks him about Keane, but he says he's "done with
the Watchers." She convinces a reluctant Methos to talk to MacLeod into
"stop worrying, you're not a bad guy." She is convinced that if Duncan
thinks he deserves to loose, he'll lose the fight.
The next morning, Methos intercepts MacLeod on the way to the fight. He
says he just came by to "watch the perfect Immortal die." Duncan
angrily insists he's not, and Methos asks whether he means that he's not
the perfect Immortal, or not going to die. Mac just tells him to go
away, but Methos insists that he can't change the past, that he has to
accept it, that it's part of who he is. (Duncan: "We talking about me,
now?")
Methos says that Keane is just like Duncan, dividing up the world
between good and bad, but it isn't that simple, that we are all both.
He urges MacLeod to try forgiving himself, for once, but Duncan just
tells him to mind his own business, "for once," and to tell Amanda to do
the same. Methos gives up, but as MacLeod walks away, he shoots him in
the back. (Methos: "You are such a pain in the ass.")
Methos goes to meet Keane, who comments that MacLeod has a lot of
friends. (Methos: "Good men often do.") They fight, and Methos slips
(or pretends to) and draws a dagger, stabs Keane to death and prepares
to take his head. Duncan arrives: "You do it and I'm next!" He is
furious, insisting that he doesn't need Methos' help. Methos angrily
stomps away, saying it's MacLeod's funeral.
Keane awakens, curious as to why he's alive, but Duncan says he doesn't
want Keane's head. Keane is only interested in Duncan paying for what
he did, but Duncan says he learned that vengeance doesn't make anything
better. Keane says that he had a dear friend who told him the same
thing - Sean Burns. For a long time he had heeded Burns' advice, until
he learned that MacLeod had killed him.
Duncan is taken aback by the reminder of his killing of Sean Burns (and
we get flashbacks to Duncan's history with Sean, including Sean's
death). Keane wants to know "why the man who killed Sean Burns is
anything but a murdering bastard to deserves to die." Duncan sits,
troubled and distracted, saying it was a mistake, but Keane is incensed,
saying he didn't judge MacLeod's reasons, he judged his acts. They
start to fight, but are interrupted by the police who have come to
arrest Duncan for stealing jewels. Amanda has framed him for the theft
in order to get him safely into jail.
In a great jailhouse scene, Duncan is furious and Amanda is very smug
about what she did, declaring that he'll only get a couple of years in
prison for the theft, and in the meantime, Keane "might get whacked."
Duncan insists that she get him out of there, that he "can take Keane"
and that he needs to have this fight. She says that she has too much
time invested in him, but as she trounces out, he warns her that he will
do whatever it takes to get out. True to his word, in return for his
release he identifies Amanda as the true thief, not just of the jewels
he was caught with, but of a whole bunch of other major jobs.
In the meantime, Keane is awaiting MacLeod at the barge, but it is
Methos who shows up. Keane threatens him, but Methos doesn't draw his
sword, saying he's a "student of human nature." When Keane leaves
without killing him, he sighs in relief, saying, "I love good guys."
Amanda is furious, complaining to Methos that Duncan had betrayed her,
but Methos isn't surprised, given what Amanda had done to him. He says
Mac has lived a long time, and that it wasn't all luck, but Amanda says
it's because when he goes against those who are older and better than he
is, he never gives up when he thinks he is right. (Methos: "Which can
be bloody annoying, which we both know.")
A troubled MacLeod goes to Darius' church, talking to him, saying he's
so tired of killing, of deciding who to kill, that Keane is a good man
who has only judged him as Duncan has judged others.
Finally, Amanda goes to Keane's club and makes a personal appeal, saying
it matters to her whether he lives, and that a hundred years from now,
when he is trying to explain why he ended up killing a good man, that
someone listens "when your friends try to stand up for you."
Duncan shows up, and after a tearful (on Amanda's part) farewell, Keane
and Duncan meet on the rooftop. It seems (to me at least) that Keane
was vastly outmatched, and once Keane falls off of one level of the roof
to another, and Duncan jumps down and picks up Keane's sword, holding
them both at his throat, Duncan tells him, "Not this time. The war's
over. Walk away." He gives him his sword and steps back. Keane looks
sad and defeated and finally walks away.
Back at the barge, Duncan tells Methos and Amanda that the battle wasn't
about how he felt about his actions after Culloden, rolling his eyes
when it seems clear that neither of them understand. He says he had to
take responsibility for what he had done, that he had to face Keane and
fight the best he could and trust the fates to decide the winner.
(Methos: "Trial by combat. Whoever wins is proven right in the eyes of
the law." Duncan: "Bright boy.")
He says Keane won't come after him, that he and Keane are a lot alike.
(Duncan: "He's not that different. None of us are. We all make
mistakes." Methos: "And we all have mistakes to forgive.")
Amanda sits seductively on Duncan's lap, joking about an inspector who
is after her and wondering whether she should forgive Duncan, who
laughingly says she shouldn't. Methos takes that as his cue to leave.
(Methos: "You guys be good." Duncan, nuzzling Amanda: "If not, we'll
try to be better.") And Methos slips away as Duncan and Amanda smooch.
MY COMMENTS: This an emotionally complex episode with one of the great
flashback scenes in all of Highlander. The view of Duncan as a
marauding barbarian who doesn't hesitate to scare children half to
death, and who kills with great satisfaction, if not downright glee, is
an eye-opener. The fact that Amanda misreads the situation is
fascinating, since it shows that she has oversimplified him, assuming
that just because he felt guilt and a need to "own" his earlier actions
and take responsibility for them, he would just give up on a fight to
survive.
Methos, who doesn't know MacLeod as well as Amanda, goes along with her
rather simplistic view of what Duncan's reactions will be, although I
think it was more pragmatism than altruism that drove Methos' actions.
Keane's a threat to a friend. Get the friend out of the way by whatever
means necessary. Kill the threat by whatever means necessary.
Interesting that, when it comes down to certain basic issues, it is
Methos who sees things as black or white, good or evil.
I've always loved the dream sequence, when Duncan wakes up shouting and
flailing, and still has a remnant of his accent when he apologies to
Amanda. Not sure why, but it makes him seem so very vulnerable, and I
find that very appealing.
The actor who plays Keane was definitely a disappointment. He had zero
charisma, I'm afraid, and ended up seeming very pompous, although that
may just be the way the part was written. It was great to see more of
Sean Burns, and to see Duncan unable to explain what happened or why,
and how much it ate at him.
So, was a swordfight any kind of answer to the question of whether
Duncan was a good man or a bad man? No, of course not. Facing Keane,
however, was a way of facing himself, and in the end when he let's Keane
go, he is letting himself go, too. Not forgiving himself, exactly, just
taking responsibility for what he had done, and moving on.
Other interesting notes: Methos' apartment is fascinating, with its
bizarre furniture and, of all things, a glass front door? How do you
rationalize that? Maybe it's actually reinforced glass, so that Methos
can see who is coming clearly, but they can't just force their way in.
But a peephole or security camera would achieve that, I would think.
And that throne chair? Any speculation on its origins?
We also learn that Methos has quit the Watchers, but we don't really
know what he is doing for a living anymore, and that he still thinks of
MacLeod as a friend. Duncan doesn't reject that relationship despite
their recent history with the Horsemen, and his anger at Methos' violent
interference in a fight Duncan feels he must have, with someone who
Duncan believes doesn't really deserve to die. Note that this is the
first time we have seen them together since their tense words in the
cemetery after Revelations 6:8. At that point, whether or not they
could be friends at all was seriously in question, but we see Methos
causally sauntering into the barge even after their argument in
Luxembourg Gardens, so one can only assume that they must each feel they
have a lot invested in that relationship.
Finally, over the years I have heard a lot of complaints about how rude
Duncan was to Methos by letting Amanda plop onto his lap and monopolize
his attention, while Methos was standing by the fireplace saying
cryptically that "We all have much to forgive," which is a pointed
reference to Methos' own dark deeds. Hogwash. I noted that none of the
commentary addressed that last scene and frankly, it was such a classic
"guy" moment that the notion that Methos might have gotten his feelings
hurt by Duncan not paying enough attention to him seems patently absurd,
at least in my view. YMMV.
This is one of my favorite episodes because of its emotional complexity,
the fact that a lot of character analysis goes on that turns out to be
*wrong*, the fabulous flashback, the additional scenes with Sean Burns,
the dream sequence, the Amanda/Methos interaction which was great fun,
and the layers of subtle communication that were going on throughout
that alluded to so many other events throughout Amanda and Methos and
Duncan's relationships.
If Keane had been a real charismatic hero-type, I would have given this
one a 10, but as it is, I can only give it a 9.
MacGeorge
Notable Methos Chronicle Entry: /I suppose it comes as no surprise that
he's extremely difficult to Watch. I've put a couple of different young
field agents on him, but he knows all the tricks of the trade.
Apparently he was paying more attention in class than his Field
Operations professors at the Academy thought at the time. I'd probably
have more luck if I just picked up the phone and asked him what he did
today. The funny thing is, we used to talk all the time, back when
"Adam" and I were regulars at Marcus Constantine's Classicist Poker
Night. He was the first person I called when I found Marcus' body.
Marcus always said "Adam" had a great poker face. Little did I know
while "Adam" and I were hiding our Watcher secret from Marcus, and he
thought he and "Adam" were hiding their Immortal secret from me, "Adam"
was gleefully hiding his little Methos secret from both of us.
/All episode commentaries are available at:
http://www.wordsmiths.net/MacGeorge/episodes/indexframeset.htm/
/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 11:55:27 -0500
From: Wendy <Immortals_Incorporated@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Season 5 dvds: Forgive Us Our Trespasses
MacG says:
> The actor who plays Keane was definitely a disappointment. He had zero
> charisma, I'm afraid, and ended up seeming very pompous, although that
> may just be the way the part was written.
I've always felt that Keane is what Duncan looks like to those who don't
know him. Earnest, sometimes pompous, judgmental, convinced of his own moral
superiority, etc. How many times did Duncan fight some Immortal over some
old "wrong"? We see Duncan as the conflicted, angsty, reluctant hero- but
that probably isn't how he appears to those who find themselves facing him.
Here Keane is, as has been pointed out, playing the Duncan role- but without
the benefit of our sympathy.
> So, was a swordfight any kind of answer to the question of whether
> Duncan was a good man or a bad man? No, of course not. Facing Keane,
> however, was a way of facing himself, and in the end when he let's Keane
> go, he is letting himself go, too. Not forgiving himself, exactly, just
> taking responsibility for what he had done, and moving on.
As always with this episode, I think TPTB botched the ending. Keane should
have won and spared *Duncan's* life, not visa versa. That would have been
much more in keeping with the conceit of having Keane play the role Duncan
usually plays. It would have also allowed Duncan to *receive* mercy instead
of always being the guy who grants mercy to others. I know that TPTB have
argued that the hero couldn't lose a sword fight - especially to someone as
common as Keane. To which I answer *bulls##t* . All that would have had to
happen is have Duncan slip jumping from roof to roof and he could have been
under Keane's sword without Keane being shown as the superior swordsman. We
certainly saw other Immortals die because of stupid mistakes. (Mako's
death-by-broken-floorboard being a prime example) . The episode fairly
*begged* for Duncan to lose and be pardoned and TPTB let it slip away with
yet another case of Duncan pardoning someone else. What did *that* prove?
Nothing.
If "trial by combat" means anything to Duncan (and Keane?), then Duncan's
victory proves him "right" (or innocent, or forgiven , or at least not a
witch <eg>). Was that the point TPTB were trying to make? That Duncan's
actions after Culloden were right? Or forgiven? Or at least not the work of
Satan? Are we to think that beating Keane makes Duncan feel any better about
his past actions? I'd doubt that. So, isn't it really his refusal to kill
Keane that makes him feel he's not a monster? Isn't that convenient? Keane
reminds Duncan of some very bad things he's done, Duncan feels bad, Duncan
tries to kill Keane, Duncan lets Keane live - so now Duncan feels better
about himself. Is there a lesson there I've missed?
> Other interesting notes: Methos' apartment is fascinating, with its
> bizarre furniture and, of all things, a glass front door? How do you
> rationalize that? Maybe it's actually reinforced glass, so that Methos
> can see who is coming clearly, but they can't just force their way in.
> But a peephole or security camera would achieve that, I would think.
> And that throne chair? Any speculation on its origins?
Why *not* a glass door? He is going to sense any Immortal before they get to
the door regardless of its construction. And, unless he was going to use a
steel security door, glass isn't that much less secure than wood.
Wendy(Why does Amanda even bother carrying a sword?)
Immortals Inc.
immortals_incorporated@cox.net
"Weasels for Eternity"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 12:24:47 -0500
From: kageorge <kageorge@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Season 5 dvds: Forgive Us Our Trespasses
Wendy wrote:
> I've always felt that Keane is what Duncan looks like to those who don't
>
>know him. Earnest, sometimes pompous, judgmental, convinced of his own moral
>superiority, etc. How many times did Duncan fight some Immortal over some
>old "wrong"? We see Duncan as the conflicted, angsty, reluctant hero- but
>that probably isn't how he appears to those who find themselves facing him.
>Here Keane is, as has been pointed out, playing the Duncan role- but without
>the benefit of our sympathy.
>
>
Excellent point. I'll have to look it up, but I think Keane is younger
than Duncan. Also, from Keane's flashback discussion with Burns, it is
apparent that Keane didn't grow up poor, scrabbling for a living as a
sword-for-hire, exposed to war and battle on such a large scale that
Duncan had, so he had not yet reached that violence saturation point
that Duncan did. So we are seeing an earlier version of Duncan, I
think, but if they could have carried it through a little more, the
story would have been stronger.
Wendy said:
>As always with this episode, I think TPTB botched the ending. Keane should
>have won and spared *Duncan's* life, not visa versa. That would have been
>much more in keeping with the conceit of having Keane play the role Duncan
>usually plays. It would have also allowed Duncan to *receive* mercy instead
>of always being the guy who grants mercy to others. I know that TPTB have
>argued that the hero couldn't lose a sword fight - especially to someone as
>common as Keane. To which I answer *bulls##t* . All that would have had to
>happen is have Duncan slip jumping from roof to roof and he could have been
>under Keane's sword without Keane being shown as the superior swordsman. We
>certainly saw other Immortals die because of stupid mistakes. (Mako's
>death-by-broken-floorboard being a prime example) . The episode fairly
>*begged* for Duncan to lose and be pardoned and TPTB let it slip away with
>yet another case of Duncan pardoning someone else. What did *that* prove?
>Nothing.
>
>If "trial by combat" means anything to Duncan (and Keane?), then Duncan's
>victory proves him "right" (or innocent, or forgiven , or at least not a
>witch <eg>). Was that the point TPTB were trying to make? That Duncan's
>actions after Culloden were right? Or forgiven? Or at least not the work of
>Satan? Are we to think that beating Keane makes Duncan feel any better about
>his past actions? I'd doubt that. So, isn't it really his refusal to kill
>Keane that makes him feel he's not a monster? Isn't that convenient? Keane
>reminds Duncan of some very bad things he's done, Duncan feels bad, Duncan
>tries to kill Keane, Duncan lets Keane live - so now Duncan feels better
>about himself. Is there a lesson there I've missed?
>
>
This is a great point, and you're right, except that Duncan wasn't
really trying to kill Keane, he was just trying to defend himself and
not get killed. For him to have lost, and for Keane to have let him
live would've made a much stronger ending and a much more poignant
lesson for Duncan to learn. It would also have made Keane even more
like Duncan. I think it would have *really* worked if they had had an
actor who had the charisma, plus the physical skills to pull off a
realistic fight so that we don't see Duncan as unbeatable.
>>Other interesting notes: Methos' apartment is fascinating, with its
>>bizarre furniture and, of all things, a glass front door? How do you
>>rationalize that? Maybe it's actually reinforced glass, so that Methos
>>can see who is coming clearly, but they can't just force their way in.
>>But a peephole or security camera would achieve that, I would think.
>>And that throne chair? Any speculation on its origins?
>>
>>
>
>Why *not* a glass door? He is going to sense any Immortal before they get to
>the door regardless of its construction. And, unless he was going to use a
>steel security door, glass isn't that much less secure than wood.
>
>
An opaque door would at least allow Methos to see without being seen.
If an Immortal used a mortal to just break the glass before he dashed
in, he could truly catch Methos off-guard. Having his personal space
open to public view also just seems so un-Methos-like. It just seemed
foolish, to me, and a poor scene design choice that requires an
explanation that is never given.
MacG
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End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 30 Dec 2004 to 3 Jan 2005 (#2005-1)
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