HIGHLA-L Digest - 23 Aug 2004 to 24 Aug 2004 (#2004-160)
Automatic digest processor (LISTSERV@lists.psu.edu)
Tue, 24 Aug 2004 22:00:05 -0400
There are 16 messages totalling 537 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. To Be, Not To Be (8)
2. HIGHLA-L Digest 21 to 22 Aug 2004 (#2004-158); Subj: sad news: Claire
Maier
3. OT - Glenmorangie in takeover talks
4. Highlander DVDs (2)
5. OT - Queen Album in Iran
6. The Gathering (and Forever Knight) (2)
7. Dragon Con invite
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 18:34:07 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: To Be, Not To Be
MacGeorge--
> Then why did you bring it up at all?
Because it's Highlander--that's what we do here. DM suddenly being
presented as mortal does seem deserving of a mention, along w/ its various
side-effects.
> What he saw was his Tessa, the women he loved and lost.
Then he really was slow; that fiasco w/ Amanda should have taught him
something. _This_ Tessa had lived a decade w/o him, had married, given up
her art, & borne children. Pursuing any relationship there was just asking
for trouble for her & was bound to be unbearably painful for him. But, it
was high drama, so that's what happened.
> so we may have to
> agree to disagree (again <g>).
I can handle that.
Nina
mac.westie@verizon.net
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:19:21 EDT
From: Bizarro7@aol.com
Subject: Re: To Be, Not To Be
In a message dated 8/23/2004 4:00:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
kageorge@erols.com writes:
Wendy Tillis wrote:
>
>
>Frankly, I think it was inexcusable for him to sleep with her. He used his
"insider" knowledge of her past to first meet and then bed her. He knew he was
in an alternate universe where they weren't together, he knew he wouldn't be
staying there with her, he knew she was married, and still he slept with her.
Tsk tsk.
>
>
Wow, I sure saw this differently. Were we watching the same scene? He
was in agony. He didn't *use* anything, and tried to leave, but she was
as drawn to him as he to her. He had lost her, the unquestioned love of
his life, and now - for just a moment - he had her again. And then he
lost her once again. The man isn't Superman, isn't even *supposed* to be
Superman. I think it is one of the most powerful scenes in all of
Highlander.
MacGeorge
I agree with both of you. On a strictly moral and surface level, Duncan did
wrong. But Duncan knew and loved Tessa, the individual, more than anyone else.
He knew he wasn't the only one in deep emotional pain, and leaving her to it
while denying himself would probably have been just as 'wrong.' In my view, AU
Tessa made that choice for him of her own free will, and he had neither the
'superman' will or logic to turn away.
Leah
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 08:38:06 -0400
From: kageorge <kageorge@erols.com>
Subject: Re: To Be, Not To Be
MacWestie wrote:
>MacGeorge--
>
>
>>Then why did you bring it up at all?
>>
>>
>
>Because it's Highlander--that's what we do here. DM suddenly being
>presented as mortal does seem deserving of a mention, along w/ its various
>side-effects.
>
>
True enuf, but you brought it up in the context of your critque of
Duncan's behavior in the scene, so you shouldn't be surprised that it
was seen as - duh - a critique of Duncan's behavior, and a rather
bizarre one, at that.
>Then he really was slow; that fiasco w/ Amanda should have taught him
>something.
>
Oh, that fiasco that was totally surreal, lasted all of about 10 minutes
and was contrary to the rest of his 400 years of experience? That was
supposed to teach him enough of a life lesson that, upon seeing his
reincarnated lost love smile at him again he would discard all emotion
and react with cold, relentless logic? I repeat (and this will be the
last time, I promise, at least in the context of this discussion), you
are holding Duncan to a superhuman standard of behavior. I don't want
him to be superhuman. I don't want him to be perfect. If he's perfect,
I sure as hell can't identify with him.
>>so we may have to
>>agree to disagree (again <g>).
>>
>>
>
>I can handle that.
>
>
I figured you could.
MacG
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:05:30 -0400
From: Wendy Tillis <immortals_incorporated@cox.net>
Subject: Re: To Be, Not To Be
Skipping many things to get to a specific point...
MacG says numerous times in various posts:-
>you are holding Duncan to a superhuman standard of behavior. I don't want
>him to be superhuman.
I don't think it has anything to do with holding Duncan to a superhuman standard. I think it is about holding the writers to picking a plot and sticking to it. Is this an alternate reality with "real" people or is it a dream-state where all is fantasy?
If it is a alternate reality, as Fitz originally says, then these are real people with real feelings and real lives and Duncan must take that into consideration. TPTB should have stuck to the notion that he couldn't interact with these people - only watch. He should have been the silent, unseen visitor who could only see what had become of his friends without him, not suddenly jump in and try to change it. "A Christmas Carol" is effective because old Scrooge can only stand by and watch as his younger self makes life-altering mistakes. He can only watch as his current family goes on about their lives without him. He can only watch in horror as his possible fate is played out. Scrooge learns his lessons very well. Here, Duncan can, at first, only watch and then is allowed to interfere wholesale. He plays with these peoples lives and then....what? ...disappears? It doesn't require a Superman to hold to the idea that you don't play with people's lives if you aren't there to cl!
ean up the mess afterwards. It's really a simple concept - "You're a visitor here, don't touch." ("Don't step off the path")("Don't pick the flowers")("Don't tap on the glass.") Again, it would have been so much more effective if he couldn't touch no matter how much he wanted to.
As an aside, my personal problem with IaWL scenarios is that (1) they tend to show the two realities as either/or...take Duncan (or George Bailey)(Which was my great-grandfather's name) out of the picture and this *will* happen - not this "might have" happened. It's too black and white, and (2) no one has *only* a positive effect on everyone they meet in life. If Duncan's presence enriched the lives of some, surely some people would have been better off if he hadn't lived. I think a person has to look at the totality of their life and decide if, overall, they were a benefit or a curse ..knowing that they were both and sometimes both at the same time. Duncan's involvement in Tessa's life gave her passion and art, it also left her childless and then dead. Duncan helped some people - Joe, for example. He harmed others - Sean Burns, for example. In 400 years there were surely people who came away from knowing Duncan worse off than if they had not known him (and I don't *just* !
mean dead Immortals) and there were people who came away better. IaWL only ever shows the good.
OTOH, if it *isn't* an alternate reality, if it is all a dream, then none of it matters. There is no Fitz, no Tessa, no husband and children, no Richie...just Duncan's subconscious trying to get him up off his ass and back in the fight. In this case, there is absolutely no reason for Duncan not to sleep with Tessa , to kill Methos, to swan dive off the Eiffel Tower at noon if he wants. ..he can "do" whatever his mind can create. No one gets hurt. Of course, if it is just a dream, it all becomes significantly less compelling. Duncan isn't seeing what would truly have happened if he didn't exist, he is seeing what his own, deep down, opinion of himself is. And, surprise, surprise, he's the hero of his own (and everyone else's ) life.
For me, showing Duncan a "reality" where he didn't exist is pointless as a lesson (whether as a alt. universe or a dream) because he *does* exist and the people he touched *did* turn out in specific ways and nothing can change that - you can't go back and erase yourself and you can't go back and fix things you don't like and you can't go back and relive the things you enjoyed. "What if" is like saying to Joe "if you hadn't stepped on that mine you'd be a rich ex-football star with a pretty wife and 3 kids""..to which Joe should reply "So send me back and I'll remember not to step on it" or perhaps ""F*** Y** it's a little late to tell me that now" . As I said, it's pointless.
In the real world, Duncan met certain people, things happened, and those things - good and bad - can't be changed. I thought that was the lesson of the AAA arc- that there is good and bad in all of us and we just have to do the best we can with that fact.
Wendy(OTOH, all I learned from AAA was that Zoroastrian demons are mostly impotent.)(And that bleeding roses are a bad sign.)(And that all great battles take place in the mind but all *exciting* battles require weapons and blood.)(And that fog machines are obviously cheap to rent in Paris.)(And that, while gibbering French dwarfs are creepy, mimes still are scarier.)
Immortals Inc.
immortals_incorporated@cox.net
"Weasels for Eternity"
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:48:58 -0400
From: kageorge <kageorge@erols.com>
Subject: Re: To Be, Not To Be
Wendy Tillis wrote:
>Skipping many things to get to a specific point...
>
>MacG says numerous times in various posts:-
>
>
>
>>you are holding Duncan to a superhuman standard of behavior. I don't want
>>him to be superhuman.
>>
>>
> <>
> I don't think it has anything to do with holding Duncan to a
> superhuman standard. I think it is about holding the writers to
> picking a plot and sticking to it. Is this an alternate reality with
> "real" people or is it a dream-state where all is fantasy? If it is a
> alternate reality, as Fitz originally says, then these are real people
> with real feelings and real lives and Duncan must take that into
> consideration. TPTB should have stuck to the notion that he couldn't
> interact with these people - only watch. He should have been the
> silent, unseen visitor who could only see what had become of his
> friends without him, not suddenly jump in and try to change it.
Ah, that is an entirely different kettle of fish. The way in which the
plot was structured is certainly open to various interpretations, and it
has been an ongoing debate whether it was "real" or just a construct of
Duncan's over-wrought mind. That, for me, is a separate issue from
whether Duncan was a "bad boy" in reacting the way he did to Tessa.
Since the set-up incorporated the notion that Duncan *could* interact
with the AU characters, I felt his actions were perfectly understandable
and very human.
>"A Christmas Carol" is effective because old Scrooge can only stand by and watch as his younger self makes life-altering mistakes. He can only watch as his current family goes on about their lives without him. He can only watch in horror as his possible fate is played out. Scrooge learns his lessons very well. Here, Duncan can, at first, only watch and then is allowed to interfere wholesale. He plays with these peoples lives and then....what? ...disappears? It doesn't require a Superman to hold to the idea that you don't play with people's lives if you aren't there to cl!
> ean up the mess afterwards. It's really a simple concept - "You're a visitor here, don't touch." ("Don't step off the path")("Don't pick the flowers")("Don't tap on the glass.") Again, it would have been so much more effective if he couldn't touch no matter how much he wanted to.
>
>
That's true, but it wouldn't have created much pathos if it were just
some movie he and Fitz were watching. First rule of drama - don't be
boring! <g> And in IaWL, George Bailey *could* interact with people in
his alternate reality.
>As an aside, my personal problem with IaWL scenarios is that (1) they tend to show the two realities as either/or...take Duncan (or George Bailey)(Which was my great-grandfather's name) out of the picture and this *will* happen - not this "might have" happened. It's too black and white, and (2) no one has *only* a positive effect on everyone they meet in life. If Duncan's presence enriched the lives of some, surely some people would have been better off if he hadn't lived. I think a person has to look at the totality of their life and decide if, overall, they were a benefit or a curse ..knowing that they were both and sometimes both at the same time. Duncan's involvement in Tessa's life gave her passion and art, it also left her childless and then dead. Duncan helped some people - Joe, for example. He harmed others - Sean Burns, for example. In 400 years there were surely people who came away from knowing Duncan worse off than if they had not known him (and I don't *just*!
!
> mean dead Immortals) and there were people who came away better. IaWL only ever shows the good.
>
>
True. There is a wonderful, complex fanfiction story that explores Fitz
showing Duncan the alternative reality of what if Duncan hadn't killed
Richie. The upshot of it was that Duncan was ultimately "taken over" by
Ahriman and became evil incarnate, and in the last scene, took Methos'
head to win the Game. Chilling.
>OTOH, if it *isn't* an alternate reality, if it is all a dream, then none of it matters. There is no Fitz, no Tessa, no husband and children, no Richie...just Duncan's subconscious trying to get him up off his ass and back in the fight. In this case, there is absolutely no reason for Duncan not to sleep with Tessa , to kill Methos, to swan dive off the Eiffel Tower at noon if he wants. ..he can "do" whatever his mind can create. No one gets hurt. Of course, if it is just a dream, it all becomes significantly less compelling. Duncan isn't seeing what would truly have happened if he didn't exist, he is seeing what his own, deep down, opinion of himself is. And, surprise, surprise, he's the hero of his own (and everyone else's ) life.
>
>
Or at least he wants to be a positive influence. That truly is what
Duncan is about, a deep desire to make a difference in the lives of the
people he cares for. I don't find much to criticize with that, whether
or not the AU was a true AU.
>In the real world, Duncan met certain people, things happened, and those things - good and bad - can't be changed. I thought that was the lesson of the AAA arc- that there is good and bad in all of us and we just have to do the best we can with that fact.
>
>
You are absolutely right, but at that point in the story Duncan didn't
feel that there was all that much good he had done and that his life
would be better spent to save his friends one last time and exit, stage
left. One thing about Duncan (and the rest of us), lessons aren't
learned instantly or permanently. Life pushes us around and we have to
constantly remind ourselves of the hardest lessons we've learned and not
react from instinct, especially in moments of great crisis - at least I
do. Perhaps you only need to be told or shown once and you instantly
assimilate it in to your psyche for all time. God bless.
>Wendy(OTOH, all I learned from AAA was that Zoroastrian demons are mostly impotent.)(And that bleeding roses are a bad sign.)(And that all great battles take place in the mind but all *exciting* battles require weapons and blood.)(And that fog machines are obviously cheap to rent in Paris.)(And that, while gibbering French dwarfs are creepy, mimes still are scarier.)
>
>
Amen to that, sistah.
MacG
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 12:39:42 EDT
From: "Trudy B. Berry" <HoltRam74@aol.com>
Subject: Re: HIGHLA-L Digest 21 to 22 Aug 2004 (#2004-158); Subj: sad news: Claire Maier
*deep, heavy sigh* I am speechless. I am so sad to hear this. My thoughts and
prayers go out to all her family and friends in RL as well as on list.
- Trudy
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 09:44:27 -0700
From: Janice Cox <jlc_fresno@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: To Be, Not To Be
Okay, I MUST read this fic. Today. Now. :-)
What was the title? Where can I find it? What is the
mean airspeed of an unladen swallow?
Janice
--- kageorge <kageorge@erols.com> wrote:
<snipsnipsnip>
True. There is a wonderful, complex fanfiction story
that explores Fitz showing Duncan the alternative
reality of what if Duncan hadn't killed Richie.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 13:45:32 -0400
From: kageorge <kageorge@erols.com>
Subject: Re: To Be, Not To Be
Janice Cox wrote:
>Okay, I MUST read this fic. Today. Now. :-)
>
>What was the title? Where can I find it? What is the
>mean airspeed of an unladen swallow?
>
>
Note: Responded to offlist - except the part about the airspeed of an
unladen swallow, about which I haven't a clue. <g>
Query: How do you laden a swallow? I have this picture in my head of a
swallow with a teeny little backback on....
MacG
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 13:56:48 EDT
From: Degruy@aol.com
Subject: OT - Glenmorangie in takeover talks
Seems the drink of choice may have a new boos or two soon.
_http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1106&e=1&u=/ft/6dfa31e4f5a211
d8b81400000e2511c8_
(http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1106&e=1&u=/ft/6dfa31e4f5a211d8b81400000e2511c8)
Edward deGruy
Student of Humanity
@}----------
"Like it or not, when it comes to revenge, we've all got a little bit of
Bruce in us." (in reference to Bruce Wayne (the Batman)) - Green Arrow
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 20:05:13 +0200
From: Mia Munro <mia.munro@chello.se>
Subject: Highlander DVDs
Hi guys,
I'm thinking of finally getting the HL DVDs, however before I order, I got a
question I hope someone can help me with. I've been salivating over the
thought of all the extras on the Best Buy dvds, but does anyone know if the
ones you can buy at Deep Discount are the same set, with the same content?
Or are they exclusive to Best Buy?
Mia
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:06:52 EDT
From: Degruy@aol.com
Subject: OT - Queen Album in Iran
I will stop at two off topic posts today,
But this is too neat _http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/3593532.stm_
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/3593532.stm)
Western music is strictly censored in the Islamic republic, where
homosexuality is considered a crime. But an album of Queen's greatest hits was
released in Iran on Monday. Mercury, who died in 1991, was proud of his Iranian
ancestry, and illegal bootleg albums and singles made Queen one of the most
popular bands in Iran.
Edward deGruy
Student of Humanity
@}----------
"Like it or not, when it comes to revenge, we've all got a little bit of
Bruce in us." (in reference to Bruce Wayne (the Batman)) - Green Arrow
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 17:46:30 EDT
From: Highlandmg@aol.com
Subject: Re: Highlander DVDs
Hi Mia
Best Buy are the only ones with special content BUT Make sure you see the
Black banner on top of box saying so.
Mary
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 19:14:46 -0400
From: Heidi <heidi@bronze.lcs.mit.edu>
Subject: The Gathering (and Forever Knight)
The Gathering was on tv today and out of curiosity I looked at the
onscreen episode description. They had-
"The Gathering". In the series opener, antique dealer Duncan MacLeod
is asked by his immortal kinsman (Christopher Lambert) to battle the
evil Slan Quince for control over the universe. Duncan: Adrian Paul.
Control over the universe? I wonder where they come up with these
descriptions.
I think there are alot of Forever Knight fans on the list, so you
may be interested to hear that www.tvshowsondvd.com says the Season 2
DVD set should be out in Jan. The info just showed up there a few
days ago. (I know some of you also like Lovejoy Mysteries since
there had been some talk on the list way back about the HL-Lovejoy
crossover fanfic. Now that some of the seasons are out on DVD in
the UK have any of you seen them? If so are there any extras or
is it just the episodes?)
Btw, for those of you in the northeast (or elsewhere) if you didn't
know, Worldcon is in the US this year and in Boston. It's Sept. 2-6.
It's geared more toward sf/f books/art/writing so the tv aspect is
smaller so I wouldn't expect any HL programming, but it wouldn't be
a suprise to find swords or other related things in the dealers room.
=}{=
(heidi@bronze.lcs.mit.edu)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 19:19:43 EDT
From: Highlandmg@aol.com
Subject: Re: The Gathering (and Forever Knight)
Heid
there are a few of us meeting for lunch and possible dinner on Thursday at
12. meeting at front desk. I will be going to hotel BUT I will not attend the
convention. I will be around as a few of my friends will be attending
Mary
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 19:23:16 EDT
From: Degruy@aol.com
Subject: Dragon Con invite
Anyone that is going to DCon this year and would like to meetup during and
catch up, email me offlist at _degruy@aol.com_ (mailto:degruy@aol.com) .
Not alot of Highlander material at DCon either but thought I would put out
the invite for those not going to WorldCon.
Edward deGruy
Student of Humanity
@}----------
Tips For How To Survive In A Horror Movie
* As a general rule, don't solve puzzles that open portals to
Hell.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 15:59:01 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: To Be, Not To Be
me before--
> >Because it's Highlander--that's what we do here. DM suddenly being
> >presented as mortal does seem deserving of a mention, along w/ its
various
> >side-effects.
MacGeorge--
> True enuf, but you brought it up in the context of your critque of
> Duncan's behavior in the scene, so you shouldn't be surprised that it
> was seen as - duh - a critique of Duncan's behavior
No, I was done w/ that. This was just an odd thing that was related since
it did have to do w/ the sex scene.
> >Then he really was slow; that fiasco w/ Amanda should have taught him
> >something.
> >
> Oh, that fiasco that was totally surreal, lasted all of about 10 minutes
> and was contrary to the rest of his 400 years of experience?
I thought the Alt. Amanda scenes were well done & absolutely brimming w/
info "teaching" DM how things worked in the alternate universe, or whatever
it was. Blowing it & "losing" Amanda seemed to hit DM hard, so I'd think
he'd have been more careful w/ Tessa.
> I repeat (and this will be the
> last time, I promise, at least in the context of this discussion), you
> are holding Duncan to a superhuman standard of behavior.
Well, I don't see it that way. I buy DM watching Tessa from afar--in agony,
but allowing himself that much--but his actually contacting her (much less
pursuing her & then seducing her), no--I don't think he'd have done it in
anything approaching a real world. It doesn't take a superman OR a 400 year
old Immie to see that it was sure to end badly for them both. He did it
here because it was dramatic & the writers wanted that scene in the series
finale. Of course, ALL TV & film comes from that place; when it shows like
this did, though, then someone goofed.
Even AP had a problem w/ DM interacting w/ Alt Tessa & risking destroying
her--so it isn't just a few viewers who found it odd & out of character. In
Peace #21, he talks about things they did to work around the problem, but
for me at least it wasn't enough.
The point of DM's "dream" SHOULD have been that no matter the good & bad his
lengthy past held, in the present (& future) his friends needed him, & he
could make a positive difference to them & to the world. I guess there
wasn't a handy filmic cliche they could use to telegraph _that_ message, &
everyone was drained by that time & heartsick about the series ending, plus
money & time were short, so... we got what we got.
Nina (all I learned from AAA--& season sux in general--was that any HL
isn't necessarily better than no HL at all)
mac.westie@verizon.net
------------------------------
End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 23 Aug 2004 to 24 Aug 2004 (#2004-160)
***************************************************************