HIGHLA-L Digest - 20 Aug 2004 to 21 Aug 2004 (#2004-157)
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Sat, 21 Aug 2004 22:00:05 -0400
There are 8 messages totalling 400 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Mary Sue, Slash, Whatever (8)
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Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 00:23:41 EDT
From: Ashton7@aol.com
Subject: Re: Mary Sue, Slash, Whatever
In a message dated 8/20/2004 2:07:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
immortals_incorporated@cox.net writes:
<<<Wendy(Tell me there isn't Jack/Teal'c slash.)(Lie to me if you must)>>>
There is lots of Jack/Teal'c slash. I cannot tell a lie. <g>
Annie
"I'm back!" -- Dr. Daniel Jackson
****************
Our Stargate Discussion Forum:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/ourstargate/start
Ashton Press: http://ashtonpress.net/
Gateway, A Stargate Slash Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Gateway/join
SDJ: http://www.savedanieljackson.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 00:25:17 EDT
From: Ashton7@aol.com
Subject: Re: Mary Sue, Slash, Whatever
In a message dated 8/20/2004 12:38:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,
tmar@sifl.iid.co.za writes:
<<<But I do NOT think Bodie and Doyle (from The Professionals - there are NO
non-slash stories for this show) are a good slash couple. >>>
There are lots of non-slash stories for this show. I have a whole collection
of gen fanzines for The Professionals.
Annie
"I'm back!" -- Dr. Daniel Jackson
****************
Our Stargate Discussion Forum:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/ourstargate/start
Ashton Press: http://ashtonpress.net/
Gateway, A Stargate Slash Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Gateway/join
SDJ: http://www.savedanieljackson.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 09:42:50 +0200
From: T'Mar <tmar@sifl.iid.co.za>
Subject: Re: Mary Sue, Slash, Whatever
Wendy wrote:
>Pervert! Pervert!
You're not the first one. :)
>Ok...why do you like Clark-loses-his-virginity-to Chloe stories?
I find it hard to believe that, as per "Lois & Clark", Clark stays a
virgin until he marries Lois. Come on! So I want to read something a
bit more realistic than that (given that this is a story about a
super-powered alien), and since I hate Lana, I think Chloe would be
a much better match for Clark.
>AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm blind! I'm blind.
>Not Jack and Daniel. Please. NO. Not that!
It's not terrible, but some of the stories about Jack's extended family
in Chicago etc make me want to hurl. They have stories where they get
*married* and stuff. Pardon me while I look for a barf bag.
>Yes, it does. It's evil. It lives in a red fog and makes roses bleed.
>Sometimes I look up and there is a French dwarf buggering Duncan and I
>have to run from the room screaming and waving my "Duncan wouldn't do
>that" flag.
Hee.
>(Tell me there isn't Jack/Teal'c slash.)(Lie to me if you must)
Annie can't lie, and neither can I. There is. Try not to think about it.
- Marina.
\\ "I think somewhere on the road to reality, ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// you took a left turn." - Nowhere Man || R I C H I E >> \\
\\=============tmar@sifl.iid.co.za============||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//===Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie==|| \\
"What about the fact they thought we were gay?"
"Adds mystery." - Wesley and Angel; "Expecting" (Angel)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 09:42:54 +0200
From: T'Mar <tmar@sifl.iid.co.za>
Subject: Re: Mary Sue, Slash, Whatever
John wrote:
>It was at this point that many people in the audience realised they'd
>presumed a lot of things based on a LACK of information rather than
>quantative proof. The audience had filled in the blanks wrongly.
Good point. But we can't know *everything* about Duncan based on 100
plus episodes, either. And I agree that slash fans slash characters
based on flimsy evidence. But they must think there is *some* evidence,
or why bother?
>... the same-sex angle is usually a prominent part of it. Often
>it's based around characters who are seen as hetrosexual in every other
>respect (hmmmm, would fiction about a gay character be slash fiction or just
>fiction?).
If the people are gay already (like in Will & Grace or something), then
it's not slash, it's just gay fiction. I guess it's the challenge to take
flimsy evidence that others say can be read another way, and write slash.
Slash, in as much as it can *have* a definition, is fanfic which
romantically pairs up characters of the same gender.
>My comments aren't meant to focus on sexuality,
>which is a personal instinct/choice/desire... just observe the need for
>fan-fic writers to often dramatically alter a central concept of their show
>of choice rather than add to it in context.
And I continue to wonder why. I do it, and don't know why. Mabe I just am
a pervert like Wendy said. :)
- Marina.
\\ "I think somewhere on the road to reality, ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// you took a left turn." - Nowhere Man || R I C H I E >> \\
\\=============tmar@sifl.iid.co.za============||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//===Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie==|| \\
"What about the fact they thought we were gay?"
"Adds mystery." - Wesley and Angel; "Expecting" (Angel)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 09:42:58 +0200
From: T'Mar <tmar@sifl.iid.co.za>
Subject: Re: Mary Sue, Slash, Whatever
Annie wrote:
>There are lots of non-slash stories for this show. I have a whole collection
>of gen fanzines for The Professionals.
Really? I've never been able to find any non-slashy Pros stories online.
Do you perhaps know of a site where there are some?
Heck, I'm still working my way through the DVDs!
- Marina.
\\ "I think somewhere on the road to reality, ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// you took a left turn." - Nowhere Man || R I C H I E >> \\
\\=============tmar@sifl.iid.co.za============||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//===Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie==|| \\
"What about the fact they thought we were gay?"
"Adds mystery." - Wesley and Angel; "Expecting" (Angel)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 09:42:56 +0200
From: T'Mar <tmar@sifl.iid.co.za>
Subject: Re: Mary Sue, Slash, Whatever
Nina wrote:
>Do you realize that by picking these examples of behavior, you are in some
>way equating urinating/defecating & being a mass murderer w/ having gay sex?
Oh please. You are doing that. I used examples of other things we once
had no evidence for.
>You could as easily have mentioned, for instance, that we never saw Methos
>pay his taxes & the onscreen revelation that he'd been married 68 times.
Fine, use that as my example then. Cut and paste. The argument remains the
same.
>Your choice...worries me, just as the abusive flavor of so much HL slash
>worries me--as a fan & as a human being.
I've never read any abusive HL slash. And slash that IS patently abusive
(X-Files, for instance) I would not read anyway.
>But you have said that slash is basically forever; long after other fanfic
>withers away, slash is still going strong.
No, that wasn't me. Someone else mentioned that and I said that if it's
true, then I wanted to know why.
>It's so upsetting to the actors who are unwillingly used as
>pornographic visual aids that the topic is officially taboo at cons.
Which actors, precisely? I know that PW doesn't seem to mind. Richard
Burgi (Jim from The Sentinel) made slashy comments in interviews.
Garett Maggart (Blair from The Sentinel) said he liked the stories.
Mitch Pileggi liked them. Michael Shanks doesn't care.
>I think online slash
>is a bizarre & shameful aspect of fandom, & when the topic arises I feel
>free to discuss it. Do you have a problem w/ that?
No. But don't order me around by saying, "Leave HL out of it".
>There's unlimited porn available online, just going by all the spam I get at
>my Yahoo addy. WHY must you drag HL, etc. into your sex life?
This conjures up a frightening mental image of a person holding a zine
and yelling orders to her bed partner. That's just scary. I drag HL
into my *reading* life. Maybe other people have a sex life that involves
HL, but I don't. I like fanfic: het, gen, slash. I like to read more
about characters I love. It's as simple as that.
- Marina.
\\ "I think somewhere on the road to reality, ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// you took a left turn." - Nowhere Man || R I C H I E >> \\
\\=============tmar@sifl.iid.co.za============||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//===Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie==|| \\
"What about the fact they thought we were gay?"
"Adds mystery." - Wesley and Angel; "Expecting" (Angel)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 03:51:09 EDT
From: Ashton7@aol.com
Subject: Re: Mary Sue, Slash, Whatever
In a message dated 8/21/2004 3:43:56 AM Eastern Standard Time,
tmar@sifl.iid.co.za writes:
<<<Really? I've never been able to find any non-slashy Pros stories online.
Do you perhaps know of a site where there are some?
Heck, I'm still working my way through the DVDs!>>>
Sorry, no. I've never looked for any Pros fiction online. I just know I have
a bunch of zines from years back before the internet and they are mostly gen
because I didn't particularly care for Pros slash. So, there *was* some being
written. Whether any of it is online, I don't know.
Annie
"I'm back!" -- Dr. Daniel Jackson
****************
Our Stargate Discussion Forum:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/ourstargate/start
Ashton Press: http://ashtonpress.net/
Gateway, A Stargate Slash Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Gateway/join
SDJ: http://www.savedanieljackson.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 15:28:27 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Mary Sue, Slash, Whatever
Marina (to John)--
> And I agree that slash fans slash characters
> based on flimsy evidence. But they must think there is *some* evidence,
> or why bother?
I don't think any "evidence" is required. It seems to me that slashers take
a particular glee in slashing the most unlikely characters. I could ponder
for an hour & come up w/ a truly impossible duo to slash, & _someone_
(probably Leah/Annie) would chime in that it's been done. You might well
say it's a fun challenge, but it seems to me more a juvenile bid for
attention--to see how much outrage can be caused by doing the unthinkable.
Marina--
> And I continue to wonder why. I do it, and don't know why. Mabe I just am
> a pervert like Wendy said. :)
Maybe. If _you_ can't explain slash, how can you wonder why other people
question its validity & the underlying motivation of slashers?
me before--
>Do you realize that by picking these examples of behavior, you are in some
>way equating urinating/defecating & being a mass murderer w/ having gay
sex?
Marina--
>Oh please. You are doing that. I used examples of other things we once
>had no evidence for.
And your freely chosen examples were both revealingly negative. It isn't
hard to see beyond the surface & realize that slash is not at all pro-gay.
>I've never read any abusive HL slash.
I find that impossible to believe. Maybe we have different definitions of
"abusive."
me before--
>But you have said that slash is basically forever; long after other fanfic
>withers away, slash is still going strong.
Marina--
>No, that wasn't me. Someone else mentioned that and I said that if it's
>true, then I wanted to know why.
Wendy said slash tends to kill off het/gen fic. You replied thusly--
>>>Maybe it's just that eventually, fanfic for a show
runs its course or burns itself out (remember: better to burn out than
fade away!) but the slashers keep going. Every possible slash plot has
been done in Sentinel slash, but people still write stories, coming up
with little twists on old ideas.>>
I think that boils down to slash being rather long-lasting. (A show as
mediocre as Sentinel ended _how_ long ago, & fans are STILL putting the guys
through their paces???)
me before--
>It's so upsetting to the actors who are unwillingly used as
>pornographic visual aids that the topic is officially taboo at cons.
>>>Which actors, precisely? I know that PW doesn't seem to mind. Richard
Burgi (Jim from The Sentinel) made slashy comments in interviews.
Garett Maggart (Blair from The Sentinel) said he liked the stories.
Mitch Pileggi liked them. Michael Shanks doesn't care.>>>
So you say. I wonder just what they really know about slash--how graphic it
gets & how widely distributed it is on the net & via sold zines. And I
wonder what they _really_ think, as opposed to what they might say to fans.
If a given actor _did_ come out publicly against slash (say, AP put a notice
on his website that he didn't want Duncan slashed, as it conflicted w/
series canon, or upset his mother, or whatever), it would just piss off a
ton of folks & do absolutely nothing to keep Methos in line. So, sure,
mostly actors just jolly you along or ban the topic if possible.
me again--
>I think online slash
>is a bizarre & shameful aspect of fandom, & when the topic arises I feel
>free to discuss it. Do you have a problem w/ that?
Marina--
>No. But don't order me around by saying, "Leave HL out of it".
That's exactly what I'm gonna do, unless & until you come up w/ a
justification for dragging HL _into_ it. You've said yourself here
several times lately that slash doesn't make sense to _you_ so why in the
world should I pat you on the head & say "go forth & slash"?
me--
>There's unlimited porn available online, just going by all the spam I get
at
>my Yahoo addy. WHY must you drag HL, etc. into your sex life?
Marina--
>>>This conjures up a frightening mental image of a person holding a zine
and yelling orders to her bed partner. That's just scary. I drag HL
into my *reading* life.>>>
Slash is about the sex (which just happens to be m/m despite a nearly all
female audience--for reasons no one, apparently, can explain), because
that's the only thing that distinguishes it from other fic. Slash is very
often porn, as you admitted. For people who read a lot of porn, that tends
to _be_ their sex life. So, yes, you are dragging HL into your sex life.
Marina--
> I like fanfic: het, gen, slash. I like to read more
> about characters I love. It's as simple as that.
But you like it best when it is 2 extremely unlikely males screwing each
other. Which makes it not simple at all.
Nina
mac.westie@verizon.net
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End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 20 Aug 2004 to 21 Aug 2004 (#2004-157)
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