HIGHLA-L Digest - 19 Aug 2004 to 20 Aug 2004 - Special issue (#2004-155)
Automatic digest processor (LISTSERV@lists.psu.edu)
Fri, 20 Aug 2004 16:53:26 -0400
There are 13 messages totalling 807 lines in this issue.
Topics in this special issue:
1. Mary Sue, Slash, Whatever (12)
2. More Bond
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:30:01 -0400
From: Wendy Tillis <immortals_incorporated@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Mary Sue, Slash, Whatever
Marina and I continue our very civilized discussion of HL and slash.
Me:
>>So...long drawn-out courtships and sappy romances between Richie and
>Methos are OK....but between a HL male and an OFC is not OK? Just checking.
Marina
>It's pretty much guaranteed that if the story was about Richie and Methos
>(in a slashy way), then it wouldn't be a sappy romance. (Richie does not
>do sappy.) And if it was, it wouldn't be very good. At least have them
>act like themselves.
Richie doesn't do sappy? Now, see, I would have guessed that if Richie ever really fell in love, he would be very sappy. But...if you wouldn't change his character to make him sappy (which I don't happen to see as much of a stretch) why would you accept a change to his character that made him want to slept with Duncan (or Methos)(Or Joe) How can they "act like themselves" and act contrary to everything we've ever been shown about them? And if he can, by some process, come to a point where buggering another man is enjoyable, couldn't he also reach a point where being sappy was OK?
Me:
>>Ok, again just testing my understanding, you say you're not interested in
>>the sex per se but, as far as I can see, the element that takes the
>>characters in the new direction is the m/m sex. In fact, since you want
>>the characters to be recognizable as their original selves, then the m/m
>>sex is really the *only* distinguishing feature, isn't it?
Marina:
>I obviously don't think so. Why do slash haters focus on the sex? Slash
>readers and writers don't!
I'm not a slash hater ( I'm not!) but I'd venture to say that they focus on the sex because the fact that the characters have started batting for the other team is the single most important difference between het and slash fanfic. In fact, it's really the only different between het and slash fic. If there is no sex - described or implied - then the stories are "buddy" tales and not slash. I can see Duncan and Methos being friends and enemies.... spending time together and apart for hundreds of years. I can see Duncan weeping over the loss of Methos or visa versa. I can see them teasing each other, drinking together, arguing, helping each other through bad times and buying each other beers in the good times. If I were to write a story about all of that and yet never state or remotely imply that they also shagged each other, it wouldn't be slash, would it? But if I added one small scene or one small line of dialog that made it clear that they were shagging, it all becomes !
slash. So...it is all about the sex!
me:
>>I mean, you still want Duncan to be brave and stubborn and prideful and
>>honorable-to-a-fault - you just want him to sleep with men, right?
>>(And only men from the canon HL world) The new direction *is* sexual...it
>>can't be anything else if all the other elements are held constant.
Marina:
>No, I disagree. (Yeah, big shock.)
:::::: Wendy picks herself up after the shock of Marina's disagreement <G>::::::
>If Duncan, who has always been this
>"highland barbarian" type, suddenly finds himself attracted to another
>man (and following my character preferences, it must be someone I'd like
>to read about - i.e., Methos, Richie or Joe) then that will affect him.
>I want to read in graphic detail his struggles to come to terms with it.
My off-the-cuff response is - when you've read one story about Duncan's struggle to come to terms with his desire for Methos, you're read them all - so let's move on to the graphic sex<eg>
My slightly more considered response is that...by the time Duncan (the Duncan we saw on the TV) convinced himself that he not only loved Methos, but wanted to sleep with him, and that it was OK for him to do so....it wouldn't be the Duncan we saw on TV any more. It would be a "new and improved" fanfic Duncan.
My third even more considered response - is that when you've read one story about Duncan's struggle to come to terms with his desire for Methos, you're read them all, so let's move on to the graphic sex<eg>
Marina:
>I haven't read HL slash for a long time either. Too busy imagining Clark
>buggering Lex Luthor. :) Geez, that was a joke. Well, sort of.
It would seem that while you're interested in character development, you are only interested in character development that gets male character A into bed with male character B. You don't just like HL slash ... you like slash in almost everything you see. So, it seems that every male character has a spiritual/sexual journey to make and the journeys all end up in bed with another man. I'd say that Duncan has a lot of "issues" to resolve, his possible attraction to Methos being only one of them. The guy on the Sentinel..Jim?..had a lot of "growth" still to do - but you only seem interested in growing him into bed with Blair (?). Clark buggering Lex? I think Superman might want to learn who and what he is before he decides to give up Lana (or Lois) for Lex.
What I'm saying is that the Highlander universe has dozens (hundreds) of possible areas for plot development. People who live though vast amounts of time. People who live hidden in plain sight. People who kill for a living. People who fall in love like everyone else but face unique challenges. People who face continuing challenges of adjusting to new cultures and laws and technologies. But out of all the possibilities, the slash writer (and reader) focuses exclusively on one tiny area...getting a two characters otherwise shown to be straight into bed with each other. Whether the story is a few paragraphs of pure porn or hundreds of pages of tormented longing and emotional struggle, the intent is the same. The story being told is "how does Duncan end up in bed with Methos" . It's an incredibly incredibly narrow band of interest...so narrow that I don't believe that the interest is in the specific characters at all....but rather in the process and the result.
In other words, if you can watch almost any TV show or movie and find a pair (or more) of characters to slash, then you're not looking at specific characters and saying "Yes, there is something there, something I've seen over time that makes me believe that he might eventually love that other man" . You're saying "there are two attractive men I would like to see in bed together, how do I arrange that?" Which is fine (I repeat). I just continue to think that it's a fallacy to claim that the slashed characters bear more than a passing - and mostly cosmetic - resemblance to the original characters.
Marina:
>Going to bed now.
Not only do you live in the "wrong" hemisphere, you live in the wrong time zone too! Wake up! Wake up and play with me!
Wendy(See, it is possible to discuss this without being uncivil)
Immortals Inc.
immortals_incorporated@cox.net
"Weasels for Eternity"
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:11:57 -0500
From: Kamil <kamilaa@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Mary Sue, Slash, Whatever
<Nina>
The only explanation that holds water is along the lines of what
Wendy, I think, mentioned earlier--that certain female fans can't
"allow" the male characters they adore to have sex w/ other women,
but other male sexual partners are OK.
<me>
As you said, that's what you think, but in my case, at any rate, it
turns out not so much. In Highlander, my fic reading is mostly
confined to Duncan/Methos, but there's other fanfic in the world, ya
know? Let's take my Jossverse OTPs (one true pairing)(pretty much
stands for pairings where you already see the chemistry and therefore
don't need to be sold on that part of the story every.single.time),
shall we?
I regularly read or seek out these pairings. In no particular order:
Buffy/Angel (okay, I lied, these two always come first <g>)
Buffy/Faith
Buffy/Riley (so I like them, sue me)
Buffy/Xander
Faith/Wesley
Faith/Gunn
Angel/Lindsey
Angel/Wesley
Angel/Faith (*pant*)
Angel/Spike
Angel/Darla
Angel/Cordy
Cordy/Xander
Angelus/Darla
Angelus/Darla/Dru
Angelus/Spike
Wesley/Illyria
Spike/Illyria
Spike/Willow
Spike/Drucilla
Darla/Dru
Willow/Fred
Willow/Tara
Willow/Xander
Gunn/Wesley
Angel/Lindsey
So when does my love for Angel (the character) and my craving for
stories slashing him morph into my not wanting to let female
characters (ick! coodies!) near him kick in? Because I'm reading a
wonderful B/A epic and I guess I really need to hurry up and finish it
before that happens.
<Nina>
Further, to the
> extent gay sex is (still) perceived as a negative thing OR the particular
> acts in the story are particularly brutal or demeaning (not uncommon w/ HL),
> the male characters are perhaps being punished for not choosing the needy
> female slash fan.
<me>
Can you see my eyes rolling from there? Because they are. What if we
were having this conversation in the sixties and you read this:
Further, to the extent interracial sex is (still) perceived as a
negative thing <snip>
Would you see the problem I'm having with that sentence then? I really
fail to see why fic readers or writers should give a crap what the
ignorant asses of the world think, much less cater their own behavior
to what the asshats say or do.
Where's fandom_wank when they're needed?
--
Kamil (was the Immortal from "The Girl in Question" Duncan?)(I'd read
fic about it in a heart -beat if someone would only write it)
"I don't understand how you could watch "Becoming" and not be a
Buffy/Angel 'shipper. And I don't understand how you could watch
anything I wrote, and not be a Darla/Angel 'shipper. But really, I'm
an Angel/Lindsey 'shipper."
Tim Minear, 2-2004.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 18:00:43 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Mary Sue, Slash, Whatever
me before--
> Further, to the
> > extent gay sex is (still) perceived as a negative thing OR the
particular
> > acts in the story are particularly brutal or demeaning (not uncommon w/
HL),
> > the male characters are perhaps being punished for not choosing the
needy
> > female slash fan.
Kamil--
> I really
> fail to see why fic readers or writers should give a crap what the
> ignorant asses of the world think, much less cater their own behavior
> to what the asshats say or do.
So much for civility....
Are you saying there's no current social stigma attached to m/m sexual
relations? (Because I think a lot of Hollywood actors--& their
agents--would disagree, despite huge progress in the last decade.)
Or are you saying there's no HL slash that celebrates brutal sexuality, if
only for the (sick) fun of having the Immie guys heal & lube up for another
round?
Nina
mac.westie@verizon.net
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 23:47:07 -0500
From: Kamil <kamilaa@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Mary Sue, Slash, Whatever
<Nina>
> Are you saying there's no current social stigma attached to m/m sexual
> relations? (Because I think a lot of Hollywood actors--& their
> agents--would disagree, despite huge progress in the last decade.)
No, didn't say that.
>
> Or are you saying there's no HL slash that celebrates brutal sexuality, if
> only for the (sick) fun of having the Immie guys heal & lube up for another
> round?
No again, I didn't say that either. *offers reading glasses*
--
Kamil
" Okay, then. Well, it's nice to know that once you think there's no
way people could be bigger nutjobs, you can always be proved wrong
(another of the many lessons brought to you by the Internet. The
Internet: serving up crazy in all shapes and sizes for your viewing
pleasure)."
ahiru
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:28:05 +0100
From: ElaineN <Elainen@inguz.co.uk>
Subject: Re: More Bond
>>Sounds like more specualtion to me. The future of Bond has produced
more
speculation disguised as fact than any other recent story I can
remember.
Of the main contenders regualrly 'quoted', Hugh Jackman nails it for me.
Adrian Paul comes in second.<<
It does sound like the usual speculation, basically their take on it.
For me well Julian McMahon would be tops. He's got the lot, looks,
charm and that edge of bad boy that Connery had.
Although if I was casting it, I'd offer the part to Jason Connery.
I'm afraid that dearly though I love Adrian and I'd love to see him in a
big role I don't think he'll get this one. I think a lot of actors have
the looks etc but what you need for a new Bond is something a little
different. I've never been tempted to even watch a Bond movie since
Roger Moore left, I've seen bits of them but they never hold my
interest.
Elaine.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:37:44 +0200
From: T'Mar <tmar@sifl.iid.co.za>
Subject: Re: Mary Sue, Slash, Whatever
John wrote:
>So to present ANY story that puts any of these characters in a homosexual
>situation, simply ISN'T being remotely true to the characters in any way
>they've been portrayed.
In your opinion. I'm quite willing to say that with *maybe* one or two
exceptions that can read another way, the show doesn't portray the
characters that way. But that doesn't mean they *wouldn't* do something
just because they have never been shown to do it. They never showed
Methos going to the bathroom either, but I think we can assume he does.
For me, Duncan deciding he likes another man would not necessarily be
out of character.
I mean - let me not use a slash example here - look at Methos. Before
CaH and Rev 6:8, many fans decided he was the best thing since sliced
bread and there was *reams* (megs) of fanfic about him. I know; I
read a lot of it. Then we discovered he had been evil: "I killed ten
thousand. And I liked it." Fans then either decided they *wanted* to
be Methos' slaves, or that Cassandra was just a hysterical b*tch, or
that he didn't *really* want to be evil, but Kronos talked/tortured
him into it. They tried valiantly to fit the new info into what they
thought they knew of Methos.
So I can do the same thing with slash.
>Slash writers can do what they want with who they want, but it does seem
>that the impetus here is to explore homosexual relationships rather than
>write *for* the existing characters per se. There's no harm in that. But I
>don't understand the need for it in the context it seems to exist.
Here's the thing: nobody does, not even the slash fans. I've read numerous
articles about slash and none of them, to me, give the whole picture. Which
is why I like discussing the concept. To me it's interesting. And I don't
like slash exclusively, but it is a favourite topic of mine. Plus, you
know me - I enjoy rooting for the underdog. You don't get more 'under'
than slash.
- Marina.
\\ "I think somewhere on the road to reality, ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// you took a left turn." - Nowhere Man || R I C H I E >> \\
\\=============tmar@sifl.iid.co.za============||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//===Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie==|| \\
"What about the fact they thought we were gay?"
"Adds mystery." - Wesley and Angel; "Expecting" (Angel)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:37:45 +0200
From: T'Mar <tmar@sifl.iid.co.za>
Subject: Re: Mary Sue, Slash, Whatever
Wendy wrote:
>Marina and I continue our very civilized discussion of HL and slash.
But haven't we *always* had civilized discussions? :)
>And if he can, by some process, come to a point where buggering another
>man is enjoyable, couldn't he also reach a point where being sappy was OK?
Yes; that makes sense. It would take time, effort and a lot of character
development, but why not.
>If I were to write a story about all of that and yet never state or
>remotely imply that they also shagged each other, it wouldn't be slash,
>would it?
No, it would be gen. Or Friendshipfic.
>But if I added one small scene or one small line of dialog that made it
>clear that they were shagging, it all becomes slash. So...it is all
>about the sex!
But if sex was just *mentioned*, then I'd think the writer just threw
it in to get a wider audience (some authors do write slash and gen
versions of stories) and I'd feel cheated. I *want* Dunkie to agonize
over his love for Methos/Joe/whoever. He doesn't have to shag him, but
I want him to at least feel attracted... so to me, it isn't about the
sex.
>:::::: Wendy picks herself up after the shock of Marina's disagreement
<G>::::::
Ppppffft. :-P <g>
>My off-the-cuff response is - when you've read one story about Duncan's
>struggle to come to terms with his desire for Methos, you're read them
>all - so let's move on to the graphic sex<eg>
No, I like the angst. If there isn't angst, then I might as well just go
to Nifty and download stories from there. And I don't think all the
stories about the struggle and angst are the same.
>My slightly more considered response is that...by the time Duncan (the
>Duncan we saw on the TV) convinced himself that he not only loved Methos,
>but wanted to sleep with him, and that it was OK for him to do so....it
>wouldn't be the Duncan we saw on TV any more. It would be a "new and
>improved" fanfic Duncan.
But (and I addressed this in another post), Duncan has done things on
screen that we have thought were out of character. We learned to integrate
those things into our picture of him. How is slashing him any different,
aside from it not being shown on screen?
>It would seem that while you're interested in character development, you
>are only interested in character development that gets male character A
>into bed with male character B. You don't just like HL slash ... you like
>slash in almost everything you see.
So call me a pervert. :) No, I see your point and can't disagree with it.
I don't *only* like slash, but I do like it. If I'm reading about Clark
losing his virginity to Chloe (not Lana, yuk!) then the angst and
character development is going to be totally different. Would you like
to quiz me on why I like Clark-loses-his-virginity-to-Chloe stories? :)
>So, it seems that every male character has a spiritual/sexual journey to
>make and the journeys all end up in bed with another man.
In *slash* - yes.
>What I'm saying is that the Highlander universe has dozens (hundreds)
>of possible areas for plot development. [snippage] The story being told is
>"how does Duncan end up in bed with Methos" . It's an incredibly incredibly
>narrow band of interest...so narrow that I don't believe that the interest
>is in the specific characters at all....but rather in the process and
>the result.
But as I said - I *have* read stories about how Immortals live in the real
world, how they cope, etc. Some have been excellent. But in slash, the
"process and result" as you say, is most important to me. Sure.
>In other words, if you can watch almost any TV show or movie and find a pair
>(or more) of characters to slash, then you're not looking at specific
> characters and saying "Yes, there is something there, something I've seen
>over time that makes me believe that he might eventually love that other
>man" . You're saying "there are two attractive men I would like to see in
>bed together, how do I arrange that?"
No. I do not do that. I never slashed Duncan until Methos came on the
scene. I thought there was something there. I think Lex looks at Clark like
Clark is an all-you-can-eat-buffet and Lex is starving.
But I do NOT think Bodie and Doyle (from The Professionals - there are NO
non-slash stories for this show) are a good slash couple. People have
tried for years to convince me, but I can't see it. I never will. I think
people who think Bodie and Doyle are shagging are just as whacked as Nina
thinks I am for thinking Duncan and Methos are. I have read a couple
dozen Pros slash stories (there are no non-slash stories) that are about
*cases* they work on, and have to scroll down really quickly to avoid
the inevitable buggering scenes.
I don't think Daniel and Jack are a good slash couple, either. Yes, I do
sometimes read Stargate SG-1 slash, but the stories have to have a plot,
and I skim through the sex scenes. Jack and Daniel just would not do that.
So why do I love stories about Duncan and Methos, or Jim and Blair? I
don't know. I just see something there that makes me think they're a
slashy couple.
>Not only do you live in the "wrong" hemisphere, you live in the wrong time
>zone too! Wake up! Wake up and play with me!
Sorry. At least it's getting to spring now and we will be nice and toasty.
And I usually stay up later in summer, so I might play with you sometime. :)
>(See, it is possible to discuss this without being uncivil)
- Marina. (Yes, it it possible.)
\\ "I think somewhere on the road to reality, ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// you took a left turn." - Nowhere Man || R I C H I E >> \\
\\=============tmar@sifl.iid.co.za============||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//===Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie==|| \\
"What about the fact they thought we were gay?"
"Adds mystery." - Wesley and Angel; "Expecting" (Angel)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:37:47 +0200
From: T'Mar <tmar@sifl.iid.co.za>
Subject: Re: Mary Sue, Slash, Whatever
I addressed most of Nina's points in my other posts, but:
>Since slash IS pornography, I just
>slashers would get their jollies elsewhere & leave Highlander out of it.
Really, I'm not trying to be nasty, but... what do you care? I mean
Nina, you hate fanfic (please let us not start that one again - I for
one will not participate) - so I presume you aren't reading any of it.
Not het, gen or slash. So why do you care how slashers get their
jollies? I don't think you're like those psycho religious types who
watch porn just so that they can denounce it. Lots of people write
fanfic about stuff I think is crazy. But so what? They aren't strapping
me to a chair and forcing me to listen while they read it to me! Slash
doesn't follow people around going, "Read me! Read me!"
- Marina.
\\ "I think somewhere on the road to reality, ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// you took a left turn." - Nowhere Man || R I C H I E >> \\
\\=============tmar@sifl.iid.co.za============||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//===Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie==|| \\
"What about the fact they thought we were gay?"
"Adds mystery." - Wesley and Angel; "Expecting" (Angel)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 12:25:27 -0500
From: Kamil <kamilaa@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Mary Sue, Slash, Whatever
<Marina>
> So call me a pervert. :) No, I see your point and can't disagree with it.
> I don't *only* like slash, but I do like it. If I'm reading about Clark
> losing his virginity to Chloe (not Lana, yuk!) then the angst and
> character development is going to be totally different. Would you like
> to quiz me on why I like Clark-loses-his-virginity-to-Chloe stories? :)
>
*ponders mental image* *light comes on*
Hey, wouldja hook a sister up? <g>
Trying to find the good stuff in SV is like fishing for goldfish in
the ocean (outside of the CLex, I know where to go for that <g>), but
I have not one clue where to go find the good
Chloe-tosses-Clark-to-the-floor- and-has-her-wicked-way-with-him --
and I suddenly feel a great need for a hit or two of that particular
crack. So a roadmap would be very welcome.
OBHLR: Is it just me, or would Duncan and Chloe get along well *cough*
after she's gotten a bit older and is a tad more mature? Just me,
then? Okay.
--
Kamil
"...Lex appears from the right of Cheekbones, and gives Clark the
gayest look I have ever seen. So gay is this look that I am compelled
to watch seasons of Queer as Folk, to read every work I can find by
Oscar Wilde, to watch every Tom Cruise movie ever made, and still,
after all this research, I cannot find a more smoldering, clearly gay
look given from one fictional character to another."
Omar, reviewing "Red" for Television Without Pity
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 19:59:52 +0200
From: T'Mar <tmar@sifl.iid.co.za>
Subject: Re: Mary Sue, Slash, Whatever
Kamil wrote:
>Trying to find the good stuff in SV is like fishing for goldfish in
>the ocean (outside of the CLex, I know where to go for that <g>), but
>I have not one clue where to go find the good
>Chloe-tosses-Clark-to-the-floor- and-has-her-wicked-way-with-him --
>and I suddenly feel a great need for a hit or two of that particular
>crack. So a roadmap would be very welcome.
Trying to remember... I went to all the usual places: Level Three,
Smallville Under the Covers, The Reporters, Chandler's Field, etc.
To my chagrin I found I had not bookmarked any of them! But you're
right - finding decent SV het is difficult. You have to be determined.
I can look for them if you like.
>OBHLR: Is it just me, or would Duncan and Chloe get along well *cough*
>after she's gotten a bit older and is a tad more mature? Just me,
>then? Okay.
Just you. :) Actually, I think Chloe would nag poor Duncan relentlessly.
She'd know about Immortals and have them on the Wall of Weird, but no
one would believe it. Also, she'd think Immortality was caused by
Kryptonite...
(I thought of an idea for a fic where Stargate scientists find out
about Immortals and discover it is caused by gene tampering done by
the Goa'uld. Hey, it could work!)
- Marina.
\\ "I think somewhere on the road to reality, ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// you took a left turn." - Nowhere Man || R I C H I E >> \\
\\=============tmar@sifl.iid.co.za============||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//===Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie==|| \\
"What about the fact they thought we were gay?"
"Adds mystery." - Wesley and Angel; "Expecting" (Angel)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:00:39 -0400
From: Wendy Tillis <immortals_incorporated@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Mary Sue, Slash, Whatever
Marina says:
>So call me a pervert. :)
Pervert! Pervert!
>I don't *only* like slash, but I do like it. If I'm reading about Clark
>losing his virginity to Chloe (not Lana, yuk!) then the angst and
>character development is going to be totally different. Would you like
>to quiz me on why I like Clark-loses-his-virginity-to-Chloe stories? :)
Ok...why do you like Clark-loses-his-virginity-to Chloe stories?
>I don't think Daniel and Jack are a good slash couple, either. Yes, I do
>sometimes read Stargate SG-1 slash,
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm blind! I'm blind. Not Jack and Daniel. Please. NO. Not that!
>Slash doesn't follow people around going, "Read me! Read me!"
Yes, it does. It's evil. It lives in a red fog and makes roses bleed. Sometimes I look up and there is a French dwarf buggering Duncan and I have to run from the room screaming and waving my "Duncan wouldn't do that" flag.
>>Not only do you live in the "wrong" hemisphere, you live in the wrong time
>>zone too! Wake up! Wake up and play with me!
>
>Sorry. At least it's getting to spring now and we will be nice and toasty.
>And I usually stay up later in summer, so I might play with you sometime.
>:)
You can have your toasty. It's over 92F (33C) here and I'm ready for winter.
Wendy(Tell me there isn't Jack/Teal'c slash.)(Lie to me if you must)
Immortals Inc.
immortals_incorporated@cox.net
"Weasels for Eternity"
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 19:16:39 +0100
From: "a.j.mosby" <a.j.mosby@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Mary Sue, Slash, Whatever
----- Original Message -----
From: "T'Mar" <tmar@SIFL.IID.CO.ZA>
I'm quite willing to say that with *maybe* one or two
> exceptions that can read another way, the show doesn't portray the
> characters that way. But that doesn't mean they *wouldn't* do something
> just because they have never been shown to do it. They never showed
> Methos going to the bathroom either, but I think we can assume he does.
> For me, Duncan deciding he likes another man would not necessarily be
> out of character.
> I mean - let me not use a slash example here - look at Methos. Before
> CaH and Rev 6:8, many fans decided he was the best thing since sliced
> bread and there was *reams* (megs) of fanfic about him. I know; I
> read a lot of it. Then we discovered he had been evil: "I killed ten
> thousand. And I liked it." Fans then either decided they *wanted* to
> be Methos' slaves, or that Cassandra was just a hysterical b*tch, or
> that he didn't *really* want to be evil, but Kronos talked/tortured
> him into it. They tried valiantly to fit the new info into what they
> thought they knew of Methos.
I see your point, but the basic example you use doesn't entirely back up
your argument. Methos was a shadowy character who we knew very little about.
His past was sketchy, his motives never quite clear and he was certainly
always seen as the ultimate pragmatist. Therefore while the revelations
(in...er...'Revelations'), came as a huge shock, they didn't actually
contradict anything that had gone before. Was the fact he was a killer and
rapist shocking? Yes. Was it out of 'character'...hmmmm.... there's the rub.
It was at this point that many people in the audience realised they'd
presumed a lot of things based on a LACK of information rather than
quantative proof. The audience had filled in the blanks wrongly.
Now making Duncan gay is simply inconsistent given the CLEAR evidence that
he loves women. Frequently. With gusto. Even making him bisexual is rather
absurd because there's not been one moment in the whole series that has
suggested that (I've seen examples of his brotherly love, but if no-one
knows the difference between that and sexual longing it's down to a certain
naivety).
So, pretty much... the question could be (pre-Revelations 6:8) "Was Methos
a cold-blooded killer?" and the answer was "Unlikely, but there's so much we
don't know." The question "Is Duncan gay/swings his sword for the other
clan?" has to be met with a "Huh? Every single piece of evidence points to
the exact opposite". In fact, you cna go further and say that
actors/writers/producers/directors have, when asked, stated that he's
obviously straight.
So fanfic writers can write whatever they want. They can make Duncan an
alien, an animal, team him up with the cast of Star Trek/90210/Harry Potter
etc etc ... and there's absolutely nothing wrong with doing so for personal
amusement/writing fun. Again, my only point is that the interest in making
any character something/somewhere they are clearly not comes down to an
interest in the 'something' rather than the character.
> >Slash writers can do what they want with who they want, but it does seem
> >that the impetus here is to explore homosexual relationships rather than
> >write *for* the existing characters per se. There's no harm in that. But
I
> >don't understand the need for it in the context it seems to exist.
>
> Here's the thing: nobody does, not even the slash fans. I've read numerous
> articles about slash and none of them, to me, give the whole picture.
Which
> is why I like discussing the concept. To me it's interesting. And I don't
> like slash exclusively, but it is a favourite topic of mine. Plus, you
> know me - I enjoy rooting for the underdog. You don't get more 'under'
> than slash.
>
> - Marina.
I don't read fan-fiction as a rule. I'm sure the quality of the material is
just as varied as any other written art-form. But I'm not sure what the big
picture could be for 'slash fiction' if it's not what we're already
discussing. My interpretation is that it's simply fiction including a fair
amount of same sex relationship coverage (with the origins of the genre
lying with the Kirk/Spock (ie: Kirk slash Spock) dynamic). Doesn't have to
be graphic, but the same-sex angle is usually a prominent part of it. Often
it's based around characters who are seen as hetrosexual in every other
respect (hmmmm, would fiction about a gay character be slash fiction or just
fiction?).
If I've got that wrong, please feel free to expand or correct me.
Again, more power to anyone brave enough to pick up a pen and get their
creative juices flowing. My comments aren't meant to focus on sexuality,
which is a personal instinct/choice/desire... just observe the need for
fan-fic writers to often dramatically alter a central concept of their show
of choice rather than add to it in context.
John
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:53:18 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Mary Sue, Slash, Whatever
Marina--
>>>They never showed
Methos going to the bathroom either, but I think we can assume he does.
...
I mean - let me not use a slash example here - look at Methos. Before
CaH and Rev 6:8, many fans decided he was the best thing since sliced
bread and there was *reams* (megs) of fanfic about him. I know; I
read a lot of it. Then we discovered he had been evil: "I killed ten
thousand. And I liked it." >>>
Do you realize that by picking these examples of behavior, you are in some
way equating urinating/defecating & being a mass murderer w/ having gay sex?
You could as easily have mentioned, for instance, that we never saw Methos
pay his taxes & the onscreen revelation that he'd been married 68 times.
Your choice...worries me, just as the abusive flavor of so much HL slash
worries me--as a fan & as a human being.
Marina--
> I addressed most of Nina's points in my other posts, but:
Really? I must not be getting all the posts....
me before--
> >Since slash IS pornography, I just
> >slashers would get their jollies elsewhere & leave Highlander out of it.
Marina-->
> but... what do you care? I mean
> Nina, you hate fanfic (please let us not start that one again - I for
> one will not participate)
Well, participate or not, but don't misstate my position. I don't give a
rat's ass about fanfic. Write away! Indulge, imagine, pine, create,
extrapolate, vent, hone your writing skills, scribble/type madly. Just
don't _distribute_ it via fanzines or on the internet because that's
violating the legal rights of the folks who own the HL universe, the
Stargate universe, the Smallville universe, etc.--the very people who
created & gave you the TV shows & characters you love so much. So, morally,
it's like stealing from friends. I know that's not as convenient for you as
saying I "hate fanfic" but then sound bites are usually misleading &
prejudicial.
> Slash
> doesn't follow people around going, "Read me! Read me!"
But you have said that slash is basically forever; long after other fanfic
withers away, slash is still going strong. Slash tends to polarize a
fandom. It's so upsetting to the actors who are unwillingly used as
pornographic visual aids that the topic is officially taboo at cons. Slash
comes up here on the list regulalry, more than most other dead horses.
(And, I don't recall who started the slash discussion here this time, but it
wasn't me.) Slash is featured on more & more fan websites; people here on
the list promo sale of slash zines in their sig lines. I think online slash
is a bizarre & shameful aspect of fandom, & when the topic arises I feel
free to discuss it. Do you have a problem w/ that?
And, by the way, I _still_ would like an answer from you to at least this
point--
>> Since slash IS pornography, I just
>>slashers would get their jollies elsewhere & leave Highlander out of it.
There's unlimited porn available online, just going by all the spam I get at
my Yahoo addy. WHY must you drag HL, etc. into your sex life?
Nina
mac.westie@verizon.net
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End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 19 Aug 2004 to 20 Aug 2004 - Special issue (#2004-155)
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