HIGHLA-L Digest - 15 May 2004 to 17 May 2004 (#2004-92)
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Mon, 17 May 2004 22:00:02 -0400
There are 12 messages totalling 418 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Season Three dvds: Mortal Sins (12)
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Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 09:43:36 -0400
From: Wendy Tillis <immortals_incorporated@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Season Three dvds: Mortal Sins
Ahhh... a chance to revive a pet peeve <g>
MacG says:
>Then she acts like a bitch for a while, and finally confesses she's gotten
>pregnant and intends to have the baby and wants to know what Duncan is
>going to do about it. She's all wide-eyed and trembly-lipped, bravely insisting
>that she'll "understand" no matter what Duncan decides (Yeah, right).
I was never an Anne-lover. OTOH, I think she gets an incredibly bad rap from many who seem to be so emotionally invested in Duncan's well-being that they can't imagine lifer from her side of the Game. I also think this whole plot line suffers from the 44-minute rule of episodic TV. The problem (the pregnancy) is introduced and dealt with all in 44 minutes while also dealing with the whole Daimler issue.
Consider what Anne is feeling for a moment. She lost her lover (Duncan) in a horrible way right in front of her eyes (splat!). Alone, depressed, sad, etc..she seeks comfort with an old friend (Duncan and Annie anyone?) Unfortunately, Anne isn't Immortal and she can - and does- get pregnant. Now she is both alone and feeling damn stupid, I'd imagine. Then, before she can even really process the fact that she is knocked up, she gets a call from her dead lover saying, "Guess what! I'm alive and living in Paris..come visit!" So, off to Paris where she discovers that her dead lover is, in fact, 400 years old. And Immortal. And he cuts off heads..and his little friend Richie is Immortal and cuts off head too. Welcome to Paris!!!
So, now she has to spring her "surprise " on Duncan. She's feeling stupid, and disloyal (because, hey, she slept with another man when she thought her lover was dead when she should have joined a convent.)(The whore!) And she doesn't know how this 400 year old man is going to react. And she desperately wants him to still care about her but she expects him to be furious and toss her out because she, no doubt, feels like she *deserves* to be thrown out. So, yeah, she's wide-eyed and trembly and bravely saying she'll understand no matter what. And she doesn't want to know what Duncan is going to do about her pregnancy- she wants to know what he is going to do about being with *her*. Will he call her a slut and shun her (as she probably feels she deserves) or will he embrace her and say he loves her regardless. It's about guilt and forgiveness...
>Then, when he takes what is obviously a *huge* leap of faith, does
>something contrary to everything he believes about whether he was ever meant to have
>children, and decides to be a father to her child, not twenty-four hours
>later, she dumps him. Literally. She builds up his hopes, then trashes
>them, evidently with zero consideration for his feelings or his emotional
>investment in the child and their relationship.
*She* doesn't know its a huge leap of faith. She doesn't know it is contrary to everything he believes. Unless he spend some of those 24 hours filling her in on all the times he came close to building a family only to see it ripped away, she doesn't *know*. Sure, he tells her that he had given up thinking about having children, but did he explain *why*? Not just the science of Immortal infertility, but the real dangers to mortals who bond with Immortals? And..*his* emotional investment in their relationship? The relationship he walked away from by leaving her to think he was dead? The relationship where he was never honest with her about what he was and why those strange things kept happening? The relationship he had to be talked into rekindling? And *his* emotional investment in the child? The investment of a whole 24 hours? When weighing her options..she is suppose to put *his* emotional investment ahead of all else? The man who could live forever's feelings are more im!
portant than the actual lives of a mortal woman and her mortal child?
And, yes, it was only 24 hours (the curse of episodic TV again) but then again ... it was a hell of a 24 hours. She's still trying to understanding what an Immortal life can be (its only been a few days for *her* too) when reality crashes down. Evil Immortal in town. People coming to Duncan for help (ie: "kill this bastard for me"). People dying. Evil guy chasing good guys. Evil guy shooting good guy. Evil guy hitting pregnant lady. Vicious sword fight and hellish Quickening. And Anne really *sees* what life will be like. Not in the abstract..."Oh, BTW, I behead people....pass the crackers." and not "Keep me between you and danger...let's go for a walk"..but the real thing. People dying. Duncan fighting for his life (and her life) and killing . Getting hurt herself . Having her baby endangered. the realization that it will always be like this. Don't forget, the fairy tale moment ended for her too. Her dream of having a life and a family with the man she loved died in t!
hose 24 hours too.
>Prior to this episode, I was sometimes annoyed by Anne, but mostly
>ambivalent about her, but there are no excuses sufficient to treat anyone
>you love like that. "Oh, yes, I'm fine, the baby's fine, and isn't it nice
>that it's a girl, and oh by the way, I'm leaving you and you're not going
>to have any part of my life or of the child's life that you just committed
>yourself to."
How about the part where he babbles on oblivious to the fact that she has something to say? And..when would have been a better time? On the way home in the car? At the barge over dinner? Just before they went to bed? In the morning after coffee? Maybe wait a few more days to let him get even more attached to the idea? Maybe wait until the next time she ends up in the hospital after being attacked by an Immortal? In the delivery room? I suspect that Anne understood that it's better to just get the bad news out and deal with it. If her mind was made up, waiting was pointless and cruel.
And she did her best to make him understand that she wasn't rejecting *him* because of what he was or what he did..she was leaving because she couldn't and wouldn't let herself turn into something she couldn't respect. She wouldn't let herself start wanting other people dead. She couldn't stand on the sidelines and root for Duncan to kill people..even bad people. And, to her credit, she wouldn't stay with him just keep herself from being alone..wouldn't cling to a man ..any man..because she was too afraid to stand alone. And she wouldn't tease Duncan by letting him get so close but no closer..either they were together or they were apart..she wasn't gong to torture him with a halfway relationship. Further, she had a baby to think about...to protect. The past 24 hours had proved that Duncan couldn't protect her from getting hurt - the concept of keeping him between her and danger wasn't going to work (As Duncan should have known from past experience). The next time some evil!
Immortal came after Duncan, it might have been the baby or Anne dead on the floor. She had to consider that.
>That's just crappy and inhumane and I wouldn't do that to an enemy, much
>less to someone I cared about. Whatever decision she felt she had to make,
>you don't just dump on someone like that. It shocked me at the time, and I
>remember looking at Duncan's face and wondering why and how he kept opening
>himself up to such pain.
But Duncan himself wasn't outraged. He was hurt, as was to be expected. But he understood her reasons. He hugged her..he didn't stomp away. He kept up a friendly relationship with her afterwards. He gave her a house for heavens sake. *He* understood. It's the fans (some of them) who can't see it. I think there is a strong element of "I'd never do that to Duncan" in the reaction to Anne. Of course, we the viewers know all about Duncan. We saw his past in flashbacks and his current life in detail. Anne didn't get to see those flashbacks. Anne didn't know anything about him that he didn't tell her- and he didn't tell her much. Anne had to base her decisions on the events of those same 24 hours where Duncan is suppose to have bonded so completely to the idea of fatherhood. Well, Anne bonded to the idea of motherhood too...and that meant thinking what was best for her and her child..not what was best for the Immortal Man.
Wendy(Can't understand how the writers thought *this* was a dignified exit for Anne)(Oh wait, they actually thought giving birth in a subway collapse was better.)
Immortals Inc.
immortals_incorporated@cox.net
"Weasels for Eternity"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 13:04:13 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Season Three dvds: Mortal Sins
Wendy--
>>>> Consider what Anne is feeling for a moment. She lost her lover (Duncan)
in a horrible way right in front of her eyes (splat!). Alone, depressed,
sad, etc..she seeks comfort with an old friend (Duncan and Annie anyone?)
Unfortunately, Anne isn't Immortal and she can - and does- get pregnant.
Now she is both alone and feeling damn stupid, I'd imagine. >>>
As she should. She's no silly teenager--she's a doctor & has no excuse for
ignoring pesky possibilities like unplanned pregnancy & STDs.
>>> So, now she has to spring her "surprise " on Duncan. She's feeling
stupid, and disloyal (because, hey, she slept with another man when she
thought her lover was dead when she should have joined a convent.)(The
whore!) And she doesn't know how this 400 year old man is going to react.
And she desperately wants him to still care about her but she expects him to
be furious and toss her out because she, no doubt, feels like she *deserves*
to be thrown out. So, yeah, she's wide-eyed and trembly and bravely saying
she'll understand no matter what. And she doesn't want to know what Duncan
is going to do about her pregnancy- she wants to know what he is going to do
about being with *her*. Will he call her a slut and shun her (as she
probably feels she deserves) or will he embrace her and say he loves her
regardless. >>>
Then she really didn't know DM at all, & _that_ makes her truly dumb,
doesn't it?
All you write would make sense for _some_ people, characters, whatever. But
it doesn't work to explain Anne & DM & this HL arc. Anne was _supposed_ to
be a mature, sensible, intelligent woman--someone worldly DM could look up
to for her dedication & professionalism. (And, we're told, someone HL's
many professional female fans were supposed to relate to.) Instead, she
committed malpractice by investigating the medical history of a non-patient
w/o permission & then prescribing a lethal amount of sleeping pills to
someone she _knew_ was depressed, hallucinating & under NO medical care at
all. In her personal life, she exhibited zero self-awareness or
consistancy; just how many times DID she dump DM, then go back--then change
her mind because it wasn't right for her after all? And, she was usually
bossy, opinionated & over-bearing. Plus--she dressed like a tralk. Then,
she exited the show by killing a co-worker & nearly killing her own baby by
stupidly forcing her way into that subway disaster site simply to appease
her own ego....
Most of DM's other love interests made sense & "worked" for the show,
considering the times, where _he_ was in his life, etc--from Debra through
Amanda to Tessa...& back to Amanda, w/ the many lusty & loving detours along
the way. For me, from start to finish, Anne was a disaster--erratically &
carelessly written, badly acted, & w/ zero CHEMISTRY w/ AP.
Nina (the hairdo made LH look like a chipmunk during her HL days, which
didn't help)
mac.westie@verizon.net
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 19:08:37 -0400
From: Sandy Fields <diamonique@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Season Three dvds: Mortal Sins
At 07:04 PM 5/17/2004, MacWestie wrote:
>Most of DM's other love interests made sense & "worked" for the show,
>considering the times, where _he_ was in his life, etc--from Debra through
>Amanda to Tessa...& back to Amanda, w/ the many lusty & loving detours along
>the way. For me, from start to finish, Anne was a disaster--erratically &
>carelessly written, badly acted, & w/ zero CHEMISTRY w/ AP.
Nina said the "C" word! Nina said the "C" word!
And I agree with everything you've said about Anne. I think it was all
just bad writing, plus bad casting.
-- Sandy
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Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 19:10:48 -0400
From: kageorge <kageorge@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Season Three dvds: Mortal Sins
\From: "MacWestie" <mac.westie@verizon.net>
(snipping a whole bunch of well-articulated stuff with which I mostly agree)
Plus--she dressed like a tralk.
What's a tralk?
MacG
(feeling stupid - not an unusual condition)
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Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 16:55:35 -0700
From: viv nichols <vivnichols@liripipe.com>
Subject: Re: Season Three dvds: Mortal Sins
>Plus--she dressed like a tralk.
>
>What's a tralk?
>
>MacG
Farscape-speak for a woman of ill-repute.
viv
---------------------------------------------------------
Time and patience. Zhaan
Time and passion. Duncan
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 20:27:21 -0400
From: Heidi <heidi@bronze.lcs.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Season Three dvds: Mortal Sins
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
She's no silly teenager--she's a doctor & has no excuse for
ignoring pesky possibilities like unplanned pregnancy & STDs.
I haven't watched the episode for quite awhile. Is it stated that
she `ignored the possibilities' rather then it being a case of
something not working as well as expected?
Instead, she committed malpractice by investigating the medical
history of a non-patient w/o permission..
The whole idea of her trying to look up his records seemed strange
anyway. Is there some magic database in Seavouver that has the
medical records of Everyone living in the US? Even if they go to
old Doc McCoy who runs a small practice, doesn't use computers,
and sees people who rarely need a doctor? And since she doesn't
know how long he's lived in the US, even if an imaginary database
like that existed, he could have easily had no reason to see a
doctor in the time he's lived here. So the fact that he had no
record being a clue to something being wrong didn't hold up.
Plus--she dressed like a tralk.
What's a tralk? I do wonder what the wardrobe people had in mind.
>From what I remember her outfits tended to look like they were
for someone much younger then her or were equally bad `70s
polyester suits.
Then, she exited the show by killing a co-worker & nearly killing
her own baby by stupidly forcing her way into that subway disaster
Who did she kill? I remember the guy going with her but not that
she actually killed him or physically forced him to go. She does
get points for having one of the dumbest lines in the series though.
Before she goes in there she says something about the kid will have
to get used to it because she's an ER doctor. Hu? What does having
the mother being a doctor in a hospital have to do with the danger
of both the mother and future kid going into a disaster site?
Btw, on a totally unrelated note, did anyone spot F Braun McAsh
on Andromeda this week? I don't know the episode title but I
think it was the first half of the two part season finale. I
only saw part of the episode but at one point when the camera
did a pan of a group of people I saw the captain from the last
season of Forever Knight and I think I saw FBMA. So I'm curious
that if it was him, did he have much of a role or just an extra
of sorts?
-H.
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Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 20:42:36 EDT
From: Highlandmg@aol.com
Subject: Re: Season Three dvds: Mortal Sins
Ohh so its OK for Duncan to jump in bed with any guest star but DR Anne is
all bad. Duncan did nothing to treat her like a jerk. Lets talk about his lies
and deception and then CALLS her on the phone leaving Joe to tell her what she
is... Did he really LOVE her???
Mary
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Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 20:44:29 EDT
From: Dotiran@aol.com
Subject: Re: Season Three dvds: Mortal Sins
In a message dated 5/17/2004 6:04:36 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
mac.westie@verizon.net writes:
zero CHEMISTRY w/ AP
On that we agree.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 21:15:58 -0400
From: kageorge <kageorge@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Season Three dvds: Mortal Sins
From: <Highlandmg@aol.com>
> Ohh so its OK for Duncan to jump in bed with any guest star but DR Anne is
> all bad. Duncan did nothing to treat her like a jerk.
Hmm. I don't think anyone has said that Anne's sleeping with someone is, de
facto, a basis for criticism. That she, a doctor, managed to get pregnant,
seems both irresponsible and fairly stupid, which are not attractive traits.
Lets talk about his lies
> and deception and then CALLS her on the phone leaving Joe to tell her what
she
> is... Did he really LOVE her???
His lies were as an unavoidable result of what he was and the chaos and
danger that created. Are you suggesting that he should have told her
immediately? He said that in 400 years he never told anyone except Tessa,
and that was after they had lived together for 3 years. As for how he
revealed that he was alive, I thought he used Joe very wisely, rather than
just calling up or appearing on her doorstep. He let Joe prepare her a
little, so it wasn't a complete shock. Did he love her? That I'm not so
sure about. I know he was prepared to turn his whole life around and to
reveal a secret to her that could put his very existance in danger.
As I said, I was fairly ambivalent about Anne until this episode, and I know
am getting a little repetitive but my major problem was how Anne literally
just dumped him, cut him out of her life, and the baby's life, when she had
been the one to push him into keeping her in his life despite the known
dangers. No discussion, no consideration of how he might feel about it,
nothing.
MacG
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 21:40:22 -0400
From: Sandy Fields <diamonique@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Season Three dvds: Mortal Sins
At 09:15 PM 5/17/2004, kageorge wrote:
>From: <Highlandmg@aol.com>
>As I said, I was fairly ambivalent about Anne until this episode, and I know
>am getting a little repetitive but my major problem was how Anne literally
>just dumped him, cut him out of her life, and the baby's life, when she had
>been the one to push him into keeping her in his life despite the known
>dangers. No discussion, no consideration of how he might feel about it,
>nothing.
I don't rememberAnn pushing him at all. She tells him she's pregnant and
she's going to keep the baby. Now he has a decision to make. With his
immortality and all the danger that brings to anyone he's close to, is he
going to try to continue the relationship? It wasn't a "Do you still love
me?" kind of thing... and she wasn't pushing IMO.
-- Sandy
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 21:44:21 EDT
From: Highlandmg@aol.com
Subject: Re: Season Three dvds: Mortal Sins
At 09:15 PM 5/17/2004, kageorge wrote:
>From: <Highlandmg@aol.com>
>As I said, I was fairly ambivalent about Anne until this episode, and I know
>am getting a little repetitive but my major problem was how Anne literally
>just dumped him, cut him out of her life, and the baby's life, when she had
>been the one to push him into keeping her in his life despite the known
>dangers. No discussion, no consideration of how he might feel about it,
>nothing.
<I don't rememberAnn pushing him at all. She tells him she's pregnant and
she's going to keep the baby. Now he has a decision to make. With his>
<immortality and all the danger that brings to anyone he's close to, is he
going to try to continue the relationship? It wasn't a "Do you still love>
<me?" kind of thing... and she wasn't pushing IMO.>
<-- Sandy
Thats not my quote
mary
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 21:48:22 -0400
From: kageorge <kageorge@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Season Three dvds: Mortal Sins
From: "Sandy Fields" <diamonique@COMCAST.NET>
> At 09:15 PM 5/17/2004, kageorge wrote:
> >From: <Highlandmg@aol.com>
> >As I said, I was fairly ambivalent about Anne until this episode, and I
know
> >am getting a little repetitive but my major problem was how Anne
literally
> >just dumped him, cut him out of her life, and the baby's life, when she
had
> >been the one to push him into keeping her in his life despite the known
> >dangers. No discussion, no consideration of how he might feel about it,
> >nothing.
>
> I don't rememberAnn pushing him at all. She tells him she's pregnant and
> she's going to keep the baby. Now he has a decision to make. With his
> immortality and all the danger that brings to anyone he's close to, is he
> going to try to continue the relationship? It wasn't a "Do you still love
> me?" kind of thing... and she wasn't pushing IMO.
I was talking about the end of the previous episode ("Testimony"), when
Duncan was going to send her away, fearful of putting her in danger, but she
insisted on staying, saying that she'd tried it with him and tried it
without him, and she'd rather be with him any way - regardless of what he
was. So they'd already had that conversation, and it was Anne who pushed to
stay together over Duncan's objections.
MacG
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End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 15 May 2004 to 17 May 2004 (#2004-92)
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