HIGHLA-L Digest - 14 Aug 2003 to 15 Aug 2003 (#2003-187)
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Fri, 15 Aug 2003 22:00:01 -0400
There are 6 messages totalling 374 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Prophecy, Cassandra and Methos (6)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 07:35:16 EDT
From: Bizarro7@aol.com
Subject: Re: Prophecy, Cassandra and Methos
In a message dated 8/14/2003 5:42:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
sgt_buck_frobisher@yahoo.com writes:
> Overall, a decent ep IMHO, though I'm not sure what to
> make of the magic seeing as how HL usually sticks
> pretty close to reality. Made me think of Forever
> Knight and Nick and company's hypnotic abilities.
Um...we can never lose sight of the whole premise of the show, for which
we've been suspending our disbelief since the first movie. A Kind of Magic. People
who live forever and can heal from everything, including death; Quickenings;
the buzz (a form of telepathy) etc. I'm reminded of the fans who got terribly
upset over one episode of Forever Knight because it involved demons, and they
insisted that 'there were no such things as demons.' Hello, did we forget we
were fans of a show about vampires?!
>
> The one glaring error I thought I saw was Cassandra
> saving Duncan early on. What happened to 'Only one
> Immortal may challenge another at at a time and no
> other Immortal can interfere in the battle?'
There's actually some justification for this, when you remember that, as a
new Immortal, Cassandra never had a 'teacher' the way she was supposed to. Or
rather, she 'had' one, but he was not only Methos, but Bronze-Age Methos, who
broke all the rules of the student-teacher Immortality protocol by enslaving
her, telling her he was the one who kept her Immortal, and the like. She probably
has as little regard for those rules as he does, as a consequence.
>
> Kantos...Mean all the way through. And no respect,
> either. He really made me not like him when he tore up
> Duncan's picture. Maybe a bit dumb though. Did he
> really think Duncan wasn't gonna get that key when he
> dropped it there? I saw it coming when he first held
> it up in the air. "Oh, geez, do you really think
> putting it there is gonna keep him from getting it?"
I suppose eliminating the dumb is part of the Immortal natural selection
process. We can't be the 'One' in the end, if we're that stupid, or something like
that.
>
> This was my first experience of Cassandra, and I don't
> have a lot to say on her, but I do think that it's her
> history with Methos that is in part what makes him
> interesting. We learn from her (and Methos himself)
> that he's capable of being a total monster, cold
> heartedly killing without remorse (at least at the
> time...now, who knows?)and brutally torturing
> Cassandra to death over and over, and yet he's also
> capable of being loving, kind and compassionate when
> he wants to be, a la Timeless. Can we say "Complex" or
> "Multilayered"? I guess it all depends on the
> situation and which Methos he lets out to play so to
> speak.
At last! Someone else who 'gets it' on the first go! Without Cassandra in the
picture, Methos was intriguing, but he wasn't spectacularly fascinating and
complex. A lot of fans may not like her, but she serves to define part of
Methos' life by being an ancient, minor component of it at a key period; she's the
sole survivor and witness of his Bronze Age criminality. That the two of them
somehow have to share the same planet and Immortality in the modern age makes
for some interesting potential, particularly when you add Duncan MacLeod into
the dynamic as a friend and protector of both.
>
> Back to the ep itself, not anything outstanding, and a
> couple things I didn't like, but all in all not too
> bad. Hm....Somewhere between a C and a B- maybe? Or am
> I wrong?
I don't think you're wrong. Kantos was a mediocre villain, and the script was
pretty weak. A lot of the sequences could have been handled better. But we
did get some more backstory on Duncan's childhood, and in the arc of Season 5,
it was a necessary first introduction to Cassandra, who appears twice more at
ciritical times when a 'great evil' threatens.
Leah
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 07:52:46 EDT
From: Dotiran@aol.com
Subject: Re: Prophecy, Cassandra and Methos
> Back to the ep itself, not anything outstanding, and a
> >couple things I didn't like, but all in all not too
> >bad. Hm....Somewhere between a C and a B- maybe? Or am
> >I wrong?
>
No, as long as you give an A +++++ to the tag :)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 16:02:10 +0200
From: T'Mar <tmar@sifl.iid.co.za>
Subject: Re: Prophecy, Cassandra and Methos
Leah wrote:
>Um...we can never lose sight of the whole premise of the show, for which
>we've been suspending our disbelief since the first movie. A Kind of
>Magic. People who live forever and can heal from everything, including
>death; Quickenings; the buzz (a form of telepathy) etc. I'm reminded
>of the fans who got terribly upset over one episode of Forever Knight
>because it involved demons, and they insisted that 'there were no
>such things as demons.' Hello, did we forget we were fans of a show
>about vampires?!
Actually, I think the fans are being perfectly logical. The idea is
that the audience will suspend disbelief only for so long, or for
only certain things.
In HL, we are asked to believe that people live forever, running
around cutting each others' heads off with swords. And we accept
this because it (to me, at least) seems basically sound and even
somewhat scientific if we think of the Quickening as being the
transfer of energy. And we'll happily accept that (or suspend
disbelief) because it makes sense. But when you start bringing
*other* concepts in, concepts that haven't been thought out or
really integrated into the show, the audience *will* think it's
unbelievable. They haven't been trained to suspend disbelief
about that. I mean, prophecies? BREWs from caves in Iraq? 'Destined'
champions? Immies who can project thoughts onto others? Gimme a break.
That's too much disbelief for me to suspend, sorry.
Same with Forever Knight. Although the vamps in that sometimes made
comments about not having souls, yadda, they were obviously wrong.
In FK, vampirism was shown as being a disease (in "The Fix" Natalie
even isolated the vampire element in Nick's DNA) that had various
effects, like wanting to drink blood, developing fangs, being able
to whammy people, etc. (Okay, the flying one still has me stumped.)
And when Nick flatlined in "Near Death", he saw only what he expected
to see. In this way, it's quite possible to conclude that FK is also
pretty scientific and has that one element (vampirism) about which
the audience must suspend disbelief. And having demons possess Nick,
ghosts appear, etc, was too much disbelief to suspend. I totally
sympathise with the fans who complained.
In Beauty and the Beast, TPTB had a rule that Vincent was the only
fantasy character allowed (and even then, there could be any number
of scientific explanations for his existence). Which is why they
rejected ideas that were occasionally pitched, such as Vincent
meeting a werewolf (that's an almost direct quote from Howard
Gordon, from an article in Starlog magazine). And it's also why
in the episode that had a ghost ("When the Bluebird Sings"), they
made it ambiguous (he was either a ghost or had faked his own death)
because they did not want to bring in "fantasy" elements. More
power to them, I say!
- Marina
who realises she might just have explained why she doesn't like Lord
of the Rings.
\\ "Good girls go to heaven. ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// Bad girls go to Smallville." || R I C H I E >> \\
\\ - 'Sorority Boys' wallpaper ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//=======tmar@sifl.iid.co.za========|| \\
\\=======Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie=======//
"Colonel, we've found something you might wanna see."
"Daniel." - 'Fallen' (Stargate SG-1)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 16:49:18 +0100
From: "John Mosby (Home)" <a.j.mosby@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Prophecy, Cassandra and Methos
To echo others:
My take is that a fantasy show does not necessarilly mean that 'anything
goes'. That's the misconception that means that the likes of Buffy etc are
never takens eriously by those who don't watch them.
Sure, Highlander asks us to suspend disbelief, but it has an intenal logic.
But just because it has a fantastical element it doesn't mean that an
episode should be pitched in which Duncan meets an alien. I'm all for the
fact that different cultures have different beliefs and abilities and with
centuries to work on particular talents, some Immortals could develop
abilities that we might perceive as somewhat paranormal. Demons/Zohastrain
or otherwise always felt on the edge of what I found acceptable in the
HIghlander universe. I preferred the HL stories that dealt with the
complexities of actually being Immortal in a human world. That had potential
enough.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "T'Mar" <tmar@sifl.iid.co.za>
To: <HIGHLA-L@LISTS.PSU.EDU>
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: [HL] Prophecy, Cassandra and Methos
> Leah wrote:
> >Um...we can never lose sight of the whole premise of the show, for which
> >we've been suspending our disbelief since the first movie. A Kind of
> >Magic. People who live forever and can heal from everything, including
> >death; Quickenings; the buzz (a form of telepathy) etc. I'm reminded
> >of the fans who got terribly upset over one episode of Forever Knight
> >because it involved demons, and they insisted that 'there were no
> >such things as demons.' Hello, did we forget we were fans of a show
> >about vampires?!
>
> Actually, I think the fans are being perfectly logical. The idea is
> that the audience will suspend disbelief only for so long, or for
> only certain things.
>
> In HL, we are asked to believe that people live forever, running
> around cutting each others' heads off with swords. And we accept
> this because it (to me, at least) seems basically sound and even
> somewhat scientific if we think of the Quickening as being the
> transfer of energy. And we'll happily accept that (or suspend
> disbelief) because it makes sense. But when you start bringing
> *other* concepts in, concepts that haven't been thought out or
> really integrated into the show, the audience *will* think it's
> unbelievable. They haven't been trained to suspend disbelief
> about that. I mean, prophecies? BREWs from caves in Iraq? 'Destined'
> champions? Immies who can project thoughts onto others? Gimme a break.
> That's too much disbelief for me to suspend, sorry.
>
> Same with Forever Knight. Although the vamps in that sometimes made
> comments about not having souls, yadda, they were obviously wrong.
> In FK, vampirism was shown as being a disease (in "The Fix" Natalie
> even isolated the vampire element in Nick's DNA) that had various
> effects, like wanting to drink blood, developing fangs, being able
> to whammy people, etc. (Okay, the flying one still has me stumped.)
> And when Nick flatlined in "Near Death", he saw only what he expected
> to see. In this way, it's quite possible to conclude that FK is also
> pretty scientific and has that one element (vampirism) about which
> the audience must suspend disbelief. And having demons possess Nick,
> ghosts appear, etc, was too much disbelief to suspend. I totally
> sympathise with the fans who complained.
>
> In Beauty and the Beast, TPTB had a rule that Vincent was the only
> fantasy character allowed (and even then, there could be any number
> of scientific explanations for his existence). Which is why they
> rejected ideas that were occasionally pitched, such as Vincent
> meeting a werewolf (that's an almost direct quote from Howard
> Gordon, from an article in Starlog magazine). And it's also why
> in the episode that had a ghost ("When the Bluebird Sings"), they
> made it ambiguous (he was either a ghost or had faked his own death)
> because they did not want to bring in "fantasy" elements. More
> power to them, I say!
>
> - Marina
> who realises she might just have explained why she doesn't like Lord
> of the Rings.
>
> \\ "Good girls go to heaven. ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
> // Bad girls go to Smallville." || R I C H I E >> \\
> \\ - 'Sorority Boys' wallpaper ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
> //=======tmar@sifl.iid.co.za========|| \\
> \\=======Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie=======//
>
> "Colonel, we've found something you might wanna see."
> "Daniel." - 'Fallen' (Stargate SG-1)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 17:01:19 -0700
From: Gregory Mate <gmate@rogers.com>
Subject: Re: Prophecy, Cassandra and Methos
John:
>Sure, Highlander asks us to suspend disbelief, but it has an intenal logic.
>But just because it has a fantastical element it doesn't mean that an
>episode should be pitched in which Duncan meets an alien.
Absolutely, but I would add that if Duncan met the alien after a *suitable*
buildup explaining: (A) How an alien would fit into the HL universe (as
opposed to being thrown together in one to three episodes) and (B) the
alien or some integral plot point would then recur in later episodes
(again, as opposed to something used just for "filler").
I do not believe it is necessary to provide exposition *only* at the
beginning and require everything to be derived from that point. But new
elements should be introduced gradually, not immediately and viciously.
....Greg....
gmate@rogers.com
He Who Likes Lord Of The Rings And Will Whap Anyone Who Does Not
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 11:44:46 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Prophecy, Cassandra and Methos
Leah--
> Um...we can never lose sight of the whole premise of the show, for which
> we've been suspending our disbelief since the first movie. A Kind of
Magic.
Yes--"A kind" of magic. The Immortal kind. Not ALL magic--like Cassandra's
crap, red fog, & the like. That was silly, out of place, & unworkable for
the show as a whole. Immortality really should be enough "magic" for any
franchise to explore, w/o dipping onto the magic hat for more on an episode
by episode basis. HL:TS flat-out denined the existence of vampires in
season 2. It also had the grace to make the holy hot tub in Deliverance &
Richie's picking up Hill's mannerisms in Haunted iffy--arguably all in
people's minds rather than having the show clearly endorsing magic
generally.
Aside from being silly, Cassandra's mind control power was unworkable in the
Star Trek/transporter sense--it made things too easy. She should have been
able to control all mortals & Immies, other than (possibly) any other gifted
students she (stupidly) taught her magic. That's why the Horseman arc
waters down all the magic--& Cassandra as a character.
> I suppose eliminating the dumb is part of the Immortal natural selection
> process. We can't be the 'One' in the end, if we're that stupid, or
something like
> that.
That does explain Richie.
> Without Cassandra in the
> picture, Methos was intriguing, but he wasn't spectacularly fascinating
and
> complex. A lot of fans may not like her, but she serves to define part of
> Methos' life by being an ancient, minor component of it at a key period;
she's the
> sole survivor and witness of his Bronze Age criminality.
So, what Methos did would be less heinous if she'd died (forever) back then,
too? If Kantos had managed to behead her ages ago? Or if she'd met, say,
Connor in a bad mood a few hundred years back & ended up a foot shorter?
I don't see how having a "sole survivor & witness" around now makes any
difference--to Methos, to Duncan, or to the viewer. Methos did what he did
(because he liked it), & then he stopped (for unknown reasons), & now he
does whatever it is that he does (for whatever reasons). He's slippery, & I
think he'd agree that anyone trusting him (in any century) would be a fool.
Nina
mac.westie@verizon.net
------------------------------
End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 14 Aug 2003 to 15 Aug 2003 (#2003-187)
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