HIGHLA-L Digest - 2 Jul 2003 - Special issue (#2003-129)
Automatic digest processor (LISTSERV@lists.psu.edu)
Wed, 2 Jul 2003 17:11:30 -0400
There are 17 messages totalling 867 lines in this issue.
Topics in this special issue:
1. Question
2. (Has some OT in it) Highlander in the news (2)
3. Highlander in the news (4)
4. Swords was Re: HL In The News (6)
5. Immies and finances (3)
6. finances
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 08:04:40 EDT
From: Dotiran@aol.com
Subject: Re: Question
In a message dated 7/2/2003 12:56:50 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
sgt_buck_frobisher@yahoo.com writes:
> Why did HL:TS finally stop production? Actors wanting
> to move on? Bad ratings?
>
According to DL and GH it was bad ratings. It is no secret, however, that AP
wanted to move on after season 5. He was talked into season 6 [probably
lucratively :)].
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 09:15:35 -0400
From: "Michele L. Kirksey" <MicheleShdwfx@cs.com>
Subject: Re: (Has some OT in it) Highlander in the news
Leah you are absolutely killing me!! ROFL!!
MicheleK
Bizarro7@aol.com wrote:
>...Er, it really shouldn't have, but it occurred to me; if you're shot by a
>potato gun in combat, are you taken to a M*A*S*H unit...?
>
>*OWWW!* Who threw that?
>
>Leah
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 09:17:18 -0400
From: "Michele L. Kirksey" <MicheleShdwfx@cs.com>
Subject: Re: (Has some OT in it) Highlander in the news
My wonderful b/f is over in the desert - I told him of the news and he replies "no more highlander for you" LOL!! No, he knows that not all highlander fans are now lumped into those capable of going over the edge so take no offense (I'm right....right?) :)
;) MicheleK
Bizarro7@aol.com wrote:
>...Er, it really shouldn't have, but it occurred to me; if you're shot by a
>potato gun in combat, are you taken to a M*A*S*H unit...?
>
>*OWWW!* Who threw that?
>
>Leah
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 10:00:18 -0400
From: Sandy Fields <diamonique@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Highlander in the news
At 03:15 AM 07/02/2003 -0700, Pat Lawson wrote:
>Thanks again John for the additional information and clarification.
Ditto. Thanks John!
-- Sandy
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 10:05:48 -0400
From: Becky Doland <becky@beckyjo.com>
Subject: Re: Swords was Re: HL In The News
Mel wrote:
> >Even harder: New identities. It's easy enough to go to
> >a forger and get a new identity created for you, but
> >how do you get it loaded into computers and stuff? I
> >think I see why Mac usually runs his own
> >buisnesses....I'd hate to have to try and come up with
> >medical records and stuff like that (credit info might
> >not be that hard) to get a job working for someone.
> >I'd much rather run my own buisness. And like someone
> >else said, being an antique dealer is an easy to get
> >rid of accumulations of stuff over the centuries.
I think that for the older ones who lived a long time before the computer
age it was probably easier to move from place to place, identity to
identity, accumulating valuables along the way. But I always wonder about
the young ones, like Richie. At first he helped out in the antique shop and
the dojo, so I imagine Mac paid him. Then there was the racing, in which he
might have made a little money. But how would have he have survived the
next hundred years or so? I can't remember him ever having a 'real' job,
enough to really support himself well and save for later. If he did and I'm
forgetting it, please correct me. He wasn't living at the dojo or on the
barge, so how did he support himself?
~ Becky
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 07:20:30 -0700
From: FKMel <sgt_buck_frobisher@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Swords was Re: HL In The News
I was thinking about that when I posted...someone had
just brought something about it over there and I was
wondering, and thinking that it would be very logical
for the Immie world to have their own Merlins and
Aristotles....could be a very profitible buisness,
too.
Mel
> This was dealt with, to some degree, on FOREVER
> KNIGHT. It was implied that
> one (and possibly more) vampires were specialists at
> forging replacement
> identities and the necessary paperwork for them to
> continue their immortal
> existence.
>
> Leah
=====
The trouble with immortality is that it tends to go on forever-Herb Cain
FK:NickNatPacker, Knight of the Cross,Knightie, Natpacker/Highlander:Duncan Flag-Waver/Due South Fan/Tracker Fan/Angel Fan/Port Charles Fan
__________________________________
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SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
http://sbc.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 14:52:28 +0000
From: beccaelizabeth <r.day@netcom.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Swords was Re: HL In The News
FKMel wrote:
>
> I was thinking about that when I posted...someone had
> just brought something about it over there and I was
> wondering, and thinking that it would be very logical
> for the Immie world to have their own Merlins and
> Aristotles....could be a very profitible buisness,
> too.
The trouble being TCBOO
any Immortal trusting another to get them an identity would also be telling that
other exactly who he was going to be for X years. and how to find them. I know
DM had a ton of friends, and I reckon any Immortal could easily have a handful
of trusted friends who they could call on for help of the ID changing sort, but
theorising that any Immortal could have enough people trust them enough to
specialise in it..? Not if they were just doing Immortals, I reckon. Maybe if
they were into fake IDs in general, and Immortals were just clients with special
needs. But even then I dont see it. I think individual Immortals would have to
muddle through as best they could by themselves.
Maybe third world countries are full of Immortals haning out and laying low and
we just dont see them because DM is all Paris and America and not worrying about
high tech records and the fact that in theory he's on security cameras all over
the civilised world for as far back as there have been security cameras. I mean
obviously its unlikely anyone kept tape or would compare it, but my point is hes
just ignoring the threat rather than doing anything to avoid it. Quality vs
risk I guess.
minor topic hop but- people often act as if older Immortals would inevitably be
rich, or at least have a bit put by as savings. I dont get why people would
assume that. I have debt. Most people I know have debt. My savings, such as
they are, do not cover my debt. Lots of people I know, their income doesnt
cover their outlay, and they arent extravagant people. In order to have money
put by you have to have a very comfortable job in the first place. Its all very
well saying that small amounts plus compound interest makes for large amounts,
but that only works if you dont need the small amount in the meantime for little
things like food or shelter. If you have money, making more is relatively easy.
If you dont, it isnt. and if all Immortals start out as foundlings then I
reckon its more likely to start out a slave or a street kid than it is to start
out a clan chiefs kid or that creepy poisoner bloke who wanted to be Xavier when
he grew up. If you start with nothing its actually pretty easy to keep on
having nothing much.
We saw one slave make it big in baseball, which isnt exactly open to everyone.
One street kid grew up to be a successful thief. Well, not everyone is willing
to steal for a living. Some people would even call it immoral. So wheres all
the poor but honest Immortals? In less exciting stories?
One reason I (theoretically) write fanfic is to explore stuff like this. I mean
I keep wanting to write about an Immortal who has dedicated his life to making
cheese. Really, really good cheese. Because people are always going to need
cheese, and he was prenticed to cheesemaking, and so he just keeps on doing what
he knows. Because there have to be people like that as well as the doctors and
dilettantes and international industrialists, but they never turn up in the
stories.
Who was the most normal, mundane, Immortal?
cause just at the moment I cant think of one.
anyways, later
beccaelizabeth
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/4212/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 11:00:26 EDT
From: Ashton7@aol.com
Subject: Re: Highlander in the news
In a message dated 7/2/2003 4:14:01 AM Eastern Standard Time,
a.j.mosby@btinternet.com writes:
> And, again, - with the pesky checking of facts - to clarify how the
> Spike/Angel rumour started. The premise was actually a 'pitch script' by a
> professional script writer that was never meant to be circulated but
> 'leaked' by someone who thought it was the real thing. It wasn't 'leaked' by
> the author.
That's interesting. So it wasn't even really fan fiction, was it? If it was a
script written by a professional writer? Pro writers write "spec" scripts all
the time based on other shows ... which I suppose really *is* a form of "fan
fiction," but isn't that how they are told to make a pitch to get a job on
shows a lot of the time? I know that many of the script writers of *my*
acquaintance have worked that way. In fact, we did an interview with Jacqueline Samuda
not too long again where she talked about doing exactly that and how the
"spec" script she chose to write was based in the Dark Angel universe.
Annie
"I'm back!" -- Dr. Daniel Jackson
****************
Stargate Solutions: http://www.savedanieljackson.com
Our Stargate Discussion Forum:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/ourstargate/start
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Gateway, A Stargate Slash Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Gateway/join
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 13:59:15 -0400
From: "Michele L. Kirksey" <MicheleShdwfx@cs.com>
Subject: Immies and finances
beccaelizabeth <r.day@netcom.co.uk> wrote:
>minor topic hop but- people often act as if older Immortals would inevitably be
>rich, or at least have a bit put by as savings. I dont get why people would
>assume that. I have debt. Most people I know have debt. My savings, such as
>they are, do not cover my debt. Lots of people I know, their income doesnt
>cover their outlay, and they arent extravagant people. In order to have money
>put by you have to have a very comfortable job in the first place. Its all very
>well saying that small amounts plus compound interest makes for large amounts,
>but that only works if you dont need the small amount in the meantime for little
>things like food or shelter. If you have money, making more is relatively easy.
> If you dont, it isnt. and if all Immortals start out as foundlings then I
>reckon its more likely to start out a slave or a street kid than it is to start
>out a clan chiefs kid or that creepy poisoner bloke who wanted to be Xavier when
>he grew up. If you start with nothing its actually pretty easy to keep on
>having nothing much.
>We saw one slave make it big in baseball, which isnt exactly open to everyone.
>One street kid grew up to be a successful thief. Well, not everyone is willing
>to steal for a living. Some people would even call it immoral. So wheres all
>the poor but honest Immortals? In less exciting stories?
>One reason I (theoretically) write fanfic is to explore stuff like this. I mean
>I keep wanting to write about an Immortal who has dedicated his life to making
>cheese. Really, really good cheese. Because people are always going to need
>cheese, and he was prenticed to cheesemaking, and so he just keeps on doing what
>he knows. Because there have to be people like that as well as the doctors and
>dilettantes and international industrialists, but they never turn up in the
>stories.
>
>Who was the most normal, mundane, Immortal?
>
>
>cause just at the moment I cant think of one.
>
>anyways, later
>beccaelizabeth
>http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/4212/
This is quick so it's not a well thought out response but I have debt incurred from being young and stupid and spending too much - as I've gotten older, with luck such as not being laid off etc., I've work on paying this debt down - if I were to be immortal I would certainly *hope* I would also learn that lesson and a) be better at budgeting my finances b) whatever skills I learned get better and better and one would hope that would translate to success and perhaps greater earning potential. Plus I suppose using the tricks of taking on new identities you could 'get out of' massive amounts of debt by 'disappearing' and starting over. Not to mention the years of opportunities to marry into money I guess....
MicheleK
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 14:04:06 -0400
From: jjswbt@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Swords was Re: HL In The News
Becky wrote:
> But I always wonder about
>the young ones, like Richie. At first he helped out in the antique shop
>and the dojo, so I imagine Mac paid him. Then there was the racing, in which
>he might have made a little money. But how would have he have survived the
>next hundred years or so?
Well, I suppose he would have had to do what mortal people do - get a job. Go to school and get a job. Learn a trade. You know - earn money the old fashioned way Think how you good you could get at something if you had decades to perfect your technique. An Immortal can takes years and years to learn a trade and then still have years and years to use the knowledge. All it takes is a willingness to both to learn a trade.
> I can't remember him ever having a 'real' job,
>enough to really support himself well and save for later. If he did and
>I'm forgetting it, please correct me. He wasn't living at the dojo or on the
>barge, so how did he support himself?
He worked in the antique store. He sold used cars. He raced motorcycles. He managed musicians. All are "real" jobs in the sense that he could have supported himself and saved some money if he had ever stuck to any of them or used them as stepping stones to better jobs. He simply didn't (so far as we were ever shown).
Richie wasn't shown to be very interested in the future- perhaps a factor of his age and perhaps a factor of personality (or both).
Wendy(He could have gone back to breaking into antique stores)
Fairy Killer
jjswbt@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~jjswbt/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 14:21:53 -0400
From: L Cameron-Norfleet <cgliser@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Immies and finances
There are also investment opportunities to think of when it comes to
immortals making and keeping money over the years. I actually think
that they have a great perspective of history when it comes to things
like this, too. That is, someone who spent a few centuries in candle
light might be more inclined to buy a few shares of, say, General
Electric when it hit the market, knowing (or guessing) that this
new-fangled electricity thing is going to hit big.
GE was first traded in 1892 at $100 per share. According to the GE
website, if you bought one share of stock pre-1926 and received cash
dividends, you would own 4,608 shares today (well, as of when that
was written). Currently, it looks like it's trading at about $28 per
share. So...$129,024--all from that one share back in the 20s. If
they'd had the foresight to consider such things.
A few wise investments and some creative estate planning could leave
even a solidly middle class immortal well set financially in the
not-so distant future (for them). they have the luxury of riding out
investments that we don't always have.
Liser
(dig me, i'm sounding like a weezul)
--
Lisa Cameron-Norfleet ** cgliser@earthlink.net
--
The difference between truth and fiction: fiction has to make sense
--Mark Twain
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 14:43:16 -0400
From: jjswbt@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Swords was Re: HL In The News
beccaelizabeth wrote:
>minor topic hop but- people often act as if older Immortals would
>inevitably be rich, or at least have a bit put by as savings.
I'd say that most Immortals would have *some* money saved somewhere - or have an accumulation of "things" that represent a significant cash value.
>I dont get why people
>would assume that. I have debt. Most people I know have debt. My savings,
>such as they are, do not cover my debt. Lots of people I know, their income doesn't
>cover their outlay, and they aren't extravagant people. In order to have
>money put by you have to have a very comfortable job in the first place.
You don't actually need a very comfortable job before you can start saving. Really. I speak from experience. What you have to do is be very thrifty, be willing to have much less *now* in order to save some for later, be able to make long term plans and stick to them, etc. If your debt is too high, you can go bankrupt - not pleasant but an option. You can get a second job. A third job. Give up cigarettes. Give up booze. Give up your car. Have lots of room mates. Give up cable TV and cell phones. Eat in, not out. Never pay full price. Put $1 away each week no matter what. In one year that's $52. Try to put away $1.50 /week the next year. If you were going to live forever, that will add up.
Immortals also have several advantages over mortals. They can walk away from debt and not look back. If Nefertiri left a lot of bills owing in ancient Egypt, no one was going to collect in modern Paris. You change your identity, you lose the old debts - while, if you're clever, you hang on to the assets. Immortals have the advantage of time - a small amount earning a bit of interest *will* add up - assuming you can claim it later. Immortals also have the advantage of picking up bits of "stuff" in one era that may prove valuable in the next era (again assuming you can hold onto the bits through moves, wars, border changes, identity changes, etc)
'>If you start with nothing it's actually pretty easy to keep on
>having nothing much.We saw one slave make it big in baseball, which isn't exactly open to
>everyone.One street kid grew up to be a successful thief. Well, not everyone is
>willing to steal for a living. Some people would even call it immoral. So where's
>all the poor but honest Immortals? In less exciting stories?
Immortals who aren't smart enough to find some way of keeping a few bucks in their pockets as the years go by are probably not smart enough to survive long term anyway. If all you do is take the sword off your dead opponent and hock it- you've done something<eg> Every dead Immortal leaves behind "stuff" - a clever victorious Immortal would find that "stuff" (quickly) and take the best bits. Duncan has accumulated a warehouse (or two) of possessions - think what that would be worth if sold piece by piece?
And again, I think you too easily discount the value of *time*. *If* one can restrain one's spending while making some money, one should eventually be out of debt. Once the debt is gone (assuming you bother to pay it off and not just move on) you can start putting the extra money to work making more money. One*can* live cheaply - one could live *very* cheaply in past ages. Move to a cheaper place to live..find a job..save money...invest money..be richer than before. Repeat as often as necessary.
Or..marry someone. Inherit their wealth.
Or ..invent something useful. Patent it.
Or ...join the army.
>One reason I (theoretically) write fanfic is to explore stuff like this.
>I mean I keep wanting to write about an Immortal who has dedicated his life to
>making cheese. Really, really good cheese. Because people are always going to
>need cheese, and he was prenticed to cheesemaking, and so he just keeps on
>doing what he knows. Because there have to be people like that as well as the
>doctors and dilettantes and international industrialists, but they never turn up in the
>stories.
We saw a lot of Immortals with "regular" jobs- sheriff, photographer, doctor, priest, soldier, carpenter, cop, fashion designer, psychologist, florist, business man/woman, sculptor, chef, eternal grad student, poet, etc.
>Who was the most normal, mundane, Immortal?
I vote for Duncan's friend (Talbot?) the florist.
Wendy(If you made cheese for centuries, you'd probably get really good at it.)(Being really good at it would eventually prove profitable.)(Profits would grow.)(Eventually you'd be a rich cheese maker.)
Fairy Killer
jjswbt@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~jjswbt/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 15:18:32 -0400
From: Bizarro7@aol.com
Subject: Re: Immies and finances
>>This is quick so it's not a well thought out response but I have debt incurred from being young and stupid and spending too much - as I've gotten older, with luck such as not being laid off etc., I've work on paying this debt down - if I were to be immortal I would certainly *hope* I would also learn that lesson and a) be better at budgeting my finances b) whatever skills I learned get better and better and one would hope that would translate to success and perhaps greater earning potential. Plus I suppose using the tricks of taking on new identities you could 'get out of' massive amounts of debt by 'disappearing' and starting over. Not to mention the years of opportunities to marry into money I guess....
MicheleK<<
Also, if you outlive your Creditor...
:)
Leah
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 09:32:11 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Highlander in the news
John--
> Well, er, yes, actually. In fact I spoke to Joss about ten days ago. So, I
> think my summation of where he stands on the subject of fan-fiction is
> pretty accurate.
So, spill! He's OK w/ fanfic writers distributing their work? What about
actual publishing? Would he sue? Because if so, then he isn't really OK w/
fanfic, is he? Maybe he's OK w/ closet fanfic. Would that be an accurate
assessment? Saying that he's OK w/ fanfic glosses over way too much
_unless_ he really doesn't care about any aspect of it. I'd be _very_
surprised if that is true.
> And, again, - with the pesky checking of facts - to clarify how the
> Spike/Angel rumour started. The premise was actually a 'pitch script' by a
> professional script writer that was never meant to be circulated but
> 'leaked' by someone who thought it was the real thing. It wasn't 'leaked'
by
> the author.
Excuse me, but the pesky fact is that YOU said earlier here that his comment
about fanfic being utter rubbish was ABOUT this leak. And in pesky fact he
said in a recent published interview that the rumored Spike premise was
fanfic. So, NOW you say the leak wasn't fanfic at all.... Did you not
discuss this w/ him? Give him a ring. Maybe HIS knowledge about this
matter is more accurate than yours.
Nina
mac.westie@verizon.net
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 09:43:11 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Swords was Re: HL In The News
Rachel--
> I don't think this happened much. Seems like lots of immies were kind
> of loners; goes with the territory. I don't know if I remember what
> the highest count of immies in one place was - was it Double
> Eagle.... help!
Depends. Rev. 6:8 had 5 Immies running amok in the sub base near the end.
But, the Euro scene of the 1st wedding in Till Death had 6 Immies w/
speaking parts, & most of the milling guests were supposed to be Immies.
That was certainly a notable exception to the show's premise that Immies are
combatant loners.
Nina
mac.westie@verizon.net
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 22:35:37 +0200
From: T'Mar <tmar@sifl.iid.co.za>
Subject: Re: Highlander in the news
John (was it?):
>>The premise was actually a 'pitch script' by a
>> professional script writer that was never meant to be circulated
Nina:
>So, NOW you say the leak wasn't fanfic at all....
Well, you know, *I* could write a spec script for how to get Spike
on Angel. I could register it. I could find an agent. I could
submit it to Joss. He might not take it. So there I am with a
spec script that hasn't been developed. Isn't that fanfic? I've
actually read scripts and novels by people who wrote and submitted
them, and had them rejected, then published them in fanzines or
on the Net. I'd think they count as fanfic. So maybe that's Joss's
thinking?
Not that spec scripts are a bad thing. Melinda Snodgrass's first
script was a spec script for TNG. Trek fans would remember it...
it was called "The Measure of a Man"? Got her a job as story
editor (or some such). Another guy did a spec script that wasn't
taken, but TPTB on TNG liked it and invited him to pitch some
ideas. One became "Silicon Avatar".
- Marina.
\\ "I'm like every other kid in America. We all ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// wanna be astronauts... 'to boldly go where || R I C H I E >> \\
\\ no man has gone before'." - Matt Sikes to ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// Cathy Frankel; Green Eyes (Alien Nation) || \\
\\==============tmar@sifl.iid.co.za=============|| //
//=============Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie=============\\
"Just because a guy's in his underwear, you think the worst."
- Trip to T'Pol; Acquisition (Enterprise)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 21:10:56 +0000
From: beccaelizabeth <r.day@netcom.co.uk>
Subject: finances
jjswbt@EARTHLINK.NET wrote:
>
> beccaelizabeth wrote:
> >minor topic hop but- people often act as if older Immortals would
> >inevitably be rich, or at least have a bit put by as savings.
>
> I'd say that most Immortals would have *some* money saved somewhere - >or have
an accumulation of "things" that represent a significant cash >value.
>
>>I dont get why people
>>would assume that. I have debt. Most people I know have debt.
>>My savings, such as they are, do not cover my debt.
>> Lots of people I know, their income doesn't
>>cover their outlay, and they aren't extravagant people.
>> In order to have money put by you have to have a very
>>comfortable job in the first place.
>
> You don't actually need a very comfortable job before you can start >saving.
Really. I speak from experience. What you have to do is be >very thrifty, be
willing to have much less *now* in order to save some >for later, be able to
make long term plans and stick to them, etc. If >your debt is too high, you can
go bankrupt - not pleasant but an
> option.
>You can get a second job. A third job. Give up cigarettes. Give up >booze.
Give up your car. Have lots of room mates. Give up cable TV and >cell phones.
Eat in, not out. Never pay full price.
This actually wound me up rather. Sorry but speaking from the experience of my
little corner of the world... never smoked, never drank, never had a car, never
had even the remote possibility of cable, never had a cell phone. Never ate
out. Until I got my DLA, I was still spending more than I had and in a bad
bind. Non disabled friends have trouble finding one job, let alone two or
three. And I dont know how you can manage to not pay full price.
Not having a car only works in urban areas btw- rural areas have to travel just
to find a food shop so lack of car doesnt work.
the government here in England did a study meant to prove that you can live
healthily on the amount of money they give to unemployed people. What they
managed to prove was you can live if you can buy mythical items like one third
of a fish finger, and only then if you never had to spend anything on items like
elastoplast or sanitary towels. And that was in England only last decade. In
previous centuries... severe lack of welfare. The vast majority of people, for
the vast majority of history, have lived hand to mouth. Unless my understanding
of history is all wrong.
>Put $1 away each week no matter what. In one year that's $52. Try to >put away
$1.50 /week the next year. If you were going to live forever, >that will add up.
This bit I do agree with. Nowadays with disability benefits I'm up to saving
ten whole pounds a week and I can afford to go to conventions. happy. but
before the disability money I was with much more supposed to go out than in and
I'd only been spending it on important stuff like food and freezer and
electricity.
> Immortals also have several advantages over mortals. They can walk >away from
debt and not look back.
actually there you get into the issue of what an Immortal could do versus what a
moral and upstanding citizen who happened to be Immortal could do. People might
have moral issues with walking away from debts. Or indeed getting into debt in
the first place. Attitudes to money lending and borrowing have changed over the
centuries.
>If Nefertiri left a lot of bills owing in ancient Egypt, no one was >going to
collect in modern Paris. You change your identity, you lose >the old debts -
while, if you're clever, you hang on to the assets.
very clever but still leaving a paper trail connecting all your old you? Or
just keeping all your assets in portable shiny things? Guess it do work. Even
with inheritance tax.
> Immortals have the advantage of time - a small amount earning a bit of
>interest *will* add up - assuming you can claim it later.
and assuming that that small amount isnt the only thing between you and
starving/freezing to death again at any point between investing and picking up
the payoff.
> Immortals also have the advantage of picking up bits of "stuff" in one >era
that may prove valuable in the next era (again assuming you can >hold onto the
bits through moves, wars, border changes, identity >changes, etc)
and needing money now when they're just old versus when they've picked up
antique value. again, there are far more books, comics etc that I used to own
but had to give up due to them adding up to meals (and a whole ton that I
couldnt get rid of even when I tried. How do they know the collectibles from
the junk? In advance they really dont.)
is antique value a relatively new concept? Collectible used to happen, with big
fashion things, but did old stuff used to be just old?
Hmmm, that would vary too- thinking on art, there were times when you were in
Rome with a real Greek bronze, and there'd be times when you were in a puritan
country with something vaguely papist. wildly varying values.
>>If you start with nothing it's actually pretty easy to keep on
>>having nothing much.
>> Well, not everyone is willing to steal for a living.
>>Some people would even call it immoral. So where's
>>all the poor but honest Immortals? In less exciting stories?
> Immortals who aren't smart enough to find some way of keeping a few
> bucks in their pockets as the years go by
(hang on, implying people with moral qualms about doing stuff would be not smart
people? Probly not meaning that.)
> are probably not smart enough to survive long term anyway.
*thinking my chances of survival are very slim*
it is possible to be good with a sword and lousy with money you know.
(not that I am. I'm kinda bad with both. But a priestess, so thats my survival
strategy sorted)
and there were some very lean times in ye olde days. The depression was it? Big
american no money time. And in europe have been whole centuries full of plague,
war, famine and general lack of banking facilities.
> If all you do is take the sword off your dead opponent and hock it- >you've
done something<eg>
yes- linked yourself to the murder
> Every dead Immortal leaves behind "stuff" -
>a clever victorious Immortal would find that "stuff" (quickly) and take >the
best bits.
and get picked up by the police / recognised by friends of the deceased
further you are again ignoring the honesty factor. Some people have actual
moral qualms about looting corpses that go beyond any qualms they might have
about self defense.
> And again, I think you too easily discount the value of *time*.
>*If* one can restrain one's spending while making some money,
which is a fairly hefty if, but yes, if then
>one should eventually be out of debt. Once the debt is gone
>(assuming you bother to pay it off and not just move on)
>you can start putting the extra money to work making more money.
> One *can* live cheaply - one could live *very* cheaply in past ages.
well it looks cheap from here, but cost of living is cost of living and poverty
happens all times all places. not enough to cover cost of living, not enough to
save up.
> Move to a cheaper place to live..find a job..save money...
>invest money..be richer than before. Repeat as often as necessary.
I think one thing thats bugging me is that theres an assumption that economic
mobility was as easy then as now. Big not. You start a slave, you die a slave,
you run away and get caught and get to be a slave again. Its a whole slave
theme, for long and long. Same with serfs, tend to stay serfs. Nobility means
being someones family, or being willing to lie about it, and you had to be noble
to have any power in many places and times. Cities were muchly smaller. Most
people worked the land. It was an entirely different situation.
You could have an Immortal who was a poor farmhand for their entire life. Not
because they were stupid, just because vast numbers of people were poor
farmhands. It was a job that got you food and shelter, not money to put by. I
dont think being one for longer would make you richer or poorer. you just got
by.
I think a lot of jobs are like that. And I think if I understand history of
economics right, the number of people who would have access to banks and
interest and that complicated stuff would be absolutely miniscule compared with
the population.
I could be wrong of course, my study of history is patchy at best and mostly
european.
> Or..marry someone. Inherit their wealth.
get killed to go on their bonfire... Marry, inherit wealth, get married off to
their brother/uncle/cousin so the wealth stays in the family. okay,
geographically limited and time limited, but not always working.
> Or ..invent something useful. Patent it.
which takes extraordinary genius to do in the first place and extraordinary luck
to market it in such a way people actually use it.
> Or ...join the army.
I'm wondering, cos I've only ever watched Sharpe to learn about armies of the
past- was it really a way to make money if you were just a regular soldier? I
mean make a living, yes, but get rich? I kinda thought the officers nicked most
of the good loot and the regular soldiers got like boots and things.
> We saw a lot of Immortals with "regular" jobs- sheriff, >photographer,
doctor, priest, soldier, carpenter, cop, fashion >designer, psychologist,
florist, business man/woman, sculptor, chef, >eternal grad student, poet, etc.
>
of that list I would consider carpenter and florist regular jobs, plus generic
businessperson. Maybe grad student and chef, though those are a bit specialist
you get a lot of them. All the rest are the kind that turn up on TV but that
you dont get too many of to a town.
>>Who was the most normal, mundane, Immortal?
>
> I vote for Duncan's friend (Talbot?) the florist.
agreed actually.
is that one we only hear about cos they're dead? Or an ep I havent seen?
> Wendy(If you made cheese for centuries, you'd probably get really good at
it.)(Being really good at it would eventually prove profitable.)(Profits would
grow.)(Eventually you'd be a rich cheese maker.)
>
Theres a baker in my town who wins national awards. He's a really good baker.
Has been for probly quarter of a century, maybe more. He's also right on the
edge of going out of business, all the time. Because, while his shop sells
better things, it doesnt sell them as cheap as the mass produced stuff that
passes for bread in supermarkets. You cant and break even. And while he has a
core of loyal customers, a whole lot more like the convenience of supermarkets
and probably dont even know he exists.
Being really good at things doesnt inevitably lead to profit. Especially these
days.
answering other peoples suggestions-
>in the not-so distant future (for them)
future is equally distant for mortals and Immortals both. an Immortal is
probably going to get there, but they get there just as slow as the rest of us.
A plan that pays off in ten years leaves you ten years of empty either way.
the buy one share at $100 plan works iff you have $100.
which it seemeth me would be a whole ton of money a hundred years ago.
and I dont think living a very long time really would give you a heads up to
spot the new and improved (especially compared to the new and daft). People get
used to things. Living centuries with candles might foster the attitude that
since people have made do with candles for so long no one is going to bother
with this electricity lark. (whats that funny bill gates quote about how much
computing power people could ever need?)
Marry for money works only if people with money would consider marrying someone
like you.
Being a woman with money only works if women arent considered property.
Steady work- Immortals wouldnt just have to worry about getting laid off, they'd
have to worry about changing ID and starting over. They'd have to either
requalify every lifetime (takes much time) or fake their qualifications (which
might be difficult and some would find dubious morally)(fake MDs for example are
not something many people would approve of even if they'd been an apothecary for
centuries)
Did guilds control things like they do in books? So you have to be in one to
work? Did they let people in who just had the skills or did you have to
prentice locally? I guess that would be all different all over.
had another thought too- how about if you grew up with some tribal people who
werent into the whole material goods big buildings and banks scene anyway? You
might not see the point of money. I mean yes when things go manky having lots
of money to sort it out with is useful, but you can get by day to day without it
so maybe a lot of Immortals do. Maybe theres a bunch of them living like
mountain men and nobody notices. money certainly not inevitable if you plain
dont want it.
Okay, so I'm in a pessimist groove maybe, but my experience, my friends
experience, is that money is not easy to come by at all. If you have none, you
tend to keep on having none. Its the boots theory of socioeconomics really.
I know us all interacting by computer kinda biases the sample so theres unlikely
to be really really poor people on mailing lists, but there are quite a lot of
really really poor people. more than there are rich people, I'm pretty sure.
So why wouldnt the majority of Immortals be poor? Because they've got longer to
make money? They also have longer to loose it.
later
beccaelizabeth
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/4212/
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End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 2 Jul 2003 - Special issue (#2003-129)
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