HIGHLA-L Digest - 28 Sep 2002 to 29 Sep 2002 - Special issue
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Sun, 29 Sep 2002 15:36:53 -0400
There are 11 messages totalling 836 lines in this issue.
Topics in this special issue:
1. Well & truly a slash thing now (11)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 23:07:36 -0400
From: jjswbt@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
beccaelizabeth wrote:
> My
>definition just includes same sex. Buffy did its own slash.
It did? So...Tara/Willow =slash? Whoa!
>what I personally would consider slash bait is any emotional
>relationship between two same sex characters, preferably with lots of
>touching or spending time together outside of the plot heavy areas of a
>show (like outside of work). to take a friendship like that and have it
>lead to a sexual relationship seems kinda natural.
<G> Seems kinda natural to *you*<eg> Seems highly unnatural to some of us. Over my long years (oh, shut up, over there) I have seen many men engage in emotional relationships outside of "work". To the best of my knowledge, none of these relationships evolved into sexual ones.
>another kind of invitation to fic is any glaring lack of relationship.
>characters that are both on a show but rarely share screen time. Its
>the same appeal as with crossover fic- put them together and see what
>happens. sometimes what your minds eye sees is hot sex.
Sometimes? Only "sometimes" what occurs is hot sex?
I can see, I guess, the challenge of taking two recurring characters who don't have scenes together and seeing what would happen if they *did* have to interact. But ... why is the assumption always that the "what" is sex? (Other than the fact that sex is what slash is all about)
>The rough sex in Highlander does exist, maybe more so than for other
>fandoms. I guess the lure is to have total freedom, to do whatever you
>want and still show no sign of it later. Like in Blade 2, the house of
>pain? Bunch of vampires slicing each other up for fun. if you're going
>to regenerate, its all just sensation. RL doesnt let you explore that-
>you hurt someone, they need hospital treatment, its a whole nasty
>thing.
I don't think it has anything to do with what Immortals (if they existed) might do for pleasure. I think it has to do with the authors. An author who is drawn to writing about violent sex hits a real drawback when the characters are "mortal". As you note, it is unrealistic to have Mulder spend an evening carving up Scully while she licks whipped cream off his knees. But...Duncan can spend a night branding his initials on Amanda's chest while she uses her teeth to take all the skin off his face...and next day they can go to Joe's with no one the wiser. HL allows writers to do whatever they want with the characters with no need to be "realistic"...and what a lot of authors want to do is have the characters hurt each other while whispering "oh baby, oh baby".
>if no matter how much you hurt someone they will heal up
>perfect, you would get Immortals like cory raines (?)(roadrunner
>episode, money no object) who just think that hurting other Immortals is
>a no harm no foul thing. why wouldnt that attitude carry over to sex?
>so to write about it is a short step from the original premise.
>logical, sorta.
sorta..maybe ...
I myself do not usually make that leap ... that a casual disregard for the safety of stranger (especially Immortal one) carries over into an urge to hurt people during sex.
>and people write slash for the full range of reasons anyone writes
>fiction- to be creative, to see what happens next, to interact with
>their readers. slash just lends itself especially well to exploring
>certain themes.
I guess I need to read more slash <eg> . I'll grant you the creativity..since the writer is creating all new characters with only "old" names to ID them to fans. As for what happens next...it always seems to involve lubricants and, later, towels. Interacting with the readers...if you say so. Exploring certain themes...OK..what themes? The recurring themes I see are that 1) under sufficient torture, anyone can be made to enjoy being buggered or 2) for the right guy, any man will allow himself to be buggered. I tend to see both alternatives as false.
>Sometimes slash fic is a way of highlighting the assumptions and
>prejudices that a writer finds completely illogical, or suggesting some
>kind of bisexual utopian alternative. Something I see in a lot of
>mainstream SF is the tendency to reassess the social and sexual norm, to
>put people in a different context and show normal is a matter of habit
>rather than necessity. Or to show people their own assumptions by
>turning them upside down.
And sometimes is all about the sex <EFG>
>Highlander is also a good place for
>presenting alternative social norms
>because flashbacks can happen anywhere in any part of history. Some of
>the best researched Highlander fanfic reads almost like a tour of sexual
>mores through the centuries. One author I know writes fully referenced
>fanfic and researches her settings exhaustively- if she has a
>transvestite priest in ancient sumeria, or a same sex wedding ceremony,
>the references will give the studies she used to back up the idea. Its
>really great fun. (for the kind of person whos idea of fun is every
>story leading to a new bookshelf for the bibliography and further
>reading sections).
My only problem with the idea that a lot of research makes a fanfic (any fanfic) more realistic, is the fact that knowing all about a culture from books doesn't tell you what it would have been like for any given person (character) to have been alive at that moment. The "fact" that homosexual relationships were common in ancient Rome between teacher and student does not, for example, "prove" that Methos slept with men while in Rome (assuming he even *was* in Rome way back in the day). The best any research can do is give you an overview of cultural norms ( to the best ability of scholars to recreate them, from whatever is left of that culture). As we know, every culture operates on a bell curve of conformity and it is anyone's guess when any given person might have fallen on that curve. In a culture where heterosexuality is the norm...there are still some homosexuals. In a culture where homosexuality is the norm, there would still be some heterosexuals.
I have a hard enough time understanding the urge to take "heterosexual" characters and portray them in same sex relationships. I haven't a clue about why anyone would care to write (or read) about their favorite "nice" characters doing unspeakable things to each other in the name of "love" (or even good sex).
Wendy ( I'd feel the same if all the pairings were hetero.)(Torture should be reserved for money issues.)
Fairy Killer
jjswbt@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~jjswbt/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 20:58:02 -0700
From: Pat Lawson <plawson@webleyweb.com>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
The levels of "you said, I said" quoting are getting pretty deep. Let's
step back a little.
Previously on Highla...
In response to a query from Liser, I said that though I'm not a slash-fan I
saw sexual overtones in the Chivalry nose-painting scene and between two
same-sex characters in a novel.
This prompted Nina to get out her Dymo (tm) label maker.
>You slashed fictional characters.
>You slashed, therefore you are ... a slasher.
In the interests of returning to the actually conversation, I'll accept
your label for now. They never stick anyway, so
I'll just toss it unto the pile. I've amassed quite a nice collection
over the years, although they're frequently contradictory. Actually, I'm
thinking of trying to sell the whole lot on eBay. Seems like there's
always a demand.
There, now I'm wearing a pretty "slasher but not a slash fan" label. Can
we get back to the conversation?
Nina said;
>Just proves my point, though--those characters LEAST likely to HAVE
>homoerotic urges draw out slashers in droves, just to beat up the
>character (& those fond of the character) a bit. Duncan MacLeod, John
>Galt--same principle.
That prompted me to ask;
>... how does seeing sexual overtones in a scene constitute "beating up" on
>Duncan?
Nina responding by describing some qualities she feels often occur in slash
and that "most slash has". Seeing as how I don't read fanfic I'm not
qualified to respond to her alleged expertise on it's content. (Since you
hate it, why do you torture yourself so?) Besides, I didn't ask about fanfic.
I'll repeat my question.
Nina said;
>Just proves my point, though--those characters LEAST
>likely to HAVE homoerotic urges draw out slashers in droves,
>just to beat up the character (& those fond of the character) a bit.
> Duncan MacLeod, John Galt--same principle.
How does seeing sexual overtones in a scene constitute "beating up" on
Duncan or other characters? How is it beating up on those fond of the
characters? You've made a specific charge in direct response to my
post. Either answer the questions or withdraw the charge.
Getting back to the more interesting discussion now. Someone was saying
something about a slash mind set?
>People who are inclined toward slash
>interpret it as couched in sexuality. People who are
>not...well...don't. So, perhaps that quality that I mentioned above
>is really more of a mind-set?
That opens the question of cause & effect. Do slash fans see Canadian
sexuality in shows because they like slash? Or do they like slash because
they're more inclined to see sexuality?
Being a dirty 'ol lady non-slash fan, I see sexual undertones between all
types of characters. Do slash fans also see sparkage between opposite sex
characters? Or are they more likely to see sparkage between same sex
characters?
Ok, one last exchange with Nina.
<P> (Not everyone fits into neat little boxes with pretty labels.)
<N> Sure they do--if one doesn't mind a bit of mess & has the right tools.
<P> Not if the victim refuses to co-operate and has tools of her own.
<N>See--you've got the "I'm a victim" line down--you're a natural slasher.
No Nina, I'm not a victim and don't intend to become one. Reread what I
said. Perhaps I should have said "intended victim" but I thought that was
clear from the context. Pigeon-holes are for the birds.
Pat
(If I'm a slasher do I need a hockey mask & bloody knife?)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 18:47:10 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
Pat--
> The levels of "you said, I said" quoting are getting pretty deep. Let's
> step back a little.
Let's not, because that's not all that's getting deep here. Really, I
_tried_ to plow through your last post (& even copy/pasted some corrections
to what you were going on about); well, I tried for awhile, but then
something more interesting came up (those fun, fun, fun telemarketers!).
> Pat
> (If I'm a slasher do I need a hockey mask & bloody knife?)
I think I missed that story, but I'm sure someone could send you the link.
Nina
mac.westie@verizon.net
Save Farscape http://farscape.wdsection.com/index.php
Frell Sci Fi, just on principle.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 18:48:24 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
beccaelizabeth--
> another kind of invitation to fic is any glaring lack of relationship.
> characters that are both on a show but rarely share screen time. Its
> the same appeal as with crossover fic- put them together and see what
> happens. sometimes what your minds eye sees is hot sex.
Maybe YOUR mind. What I'd probably see is the guys talking trash about
female anatomy, completely blowing off all the boring things they promised
significant others they'd do that day, eating massive amounts of Pringles (&
leaving the lid half off the crumby remains), & farting.
> The rough sex in Highlander does exist, maybe more so than for other
> fandoms. I guess the lure is to have total freedom, to do whatever you
> want and still show no sign of it later. Like in Blade 2, the house of
> pain? Bunch of vampires slicing each other up for fun. if you're going
> to regenerate, its all just sensation. RL doesnt let you explore that-
> you hurt someone, they need hospital treatment, its a whole nasty
> thing.
I suspect that people who like to explore violence in a sexual context may
have a problem more serious than a slash dependency.
> if no matter how much you hurt someone they will heal up
> perfect, you would get Immortals like cory raines (?)(roadrunner
> episode, money no object) who just think that hurting other Immortals is
> a no harm no foul thing. why wouldnt that attitude carry over to sex?
Because the sex thing is way creepier. Just like rape is far different &
far worse that slapping someone.
> and people write slash for the full range of reasons anyone writes
> fiction- to be creative, to see what happens next, to interact with
> their readers. slash just lends itself especially well to exploring
> certain themes.
Slashers interacting w/ their readers... You really aren't helping.
> my impression is people dont like being flamed for what they do.
Then maybe they should quit doing it. Or get used to people finding it
bizarre.
> my impression of this discussion is every time someone gives an answer
> someone else sort of ups the stakes, brings in another issue entirely.
> like going from talk about slash, to do you slash real people, to actor
> fic. that to me is bringing in new topics just so you can find fault
> with them. which reads like trying real hard to turn a discussion into
> an argument.
Well, my impression is that it's all--especially the extreme types of fanfic
& the nastier variants of slash--supposed to be kept quiet. NOT that
there's anything _wrong_ w/ them, of course. Just to keep up appearances.
Lotsa luck w/ that.
Jen--
>Homosexual love DOES NOT EQUAL rape, any more then heterosexual love
>does. Nor are all homosexual relationships initiated via rape.
Certainly not, & I didn't say anything like that. But, in HL slash, DM &
the others usually aren't men who are happy or content w/ their homosexual
relationships. Even if there's no actual violent sex/rape in the story,
someone's confused, guilty, remorseful, ashamed, uncertain, etc. about the
sex. And, never in a single HETERO relationship on HL:TS did we see DM,
Methos or Richie ANY of that re: their myriad sexual relationships w/ women
(& only women). So, in that sense, slash lessens the characters in a
mean-spirited way.
> Try reading a different sort of slash story and see how it goes.
Pass.
Nina (Wendy--do you get residuals for the "greased weasels" comment on Buffy
last week?)
mac.westie@verizon.net
Save Farscape http://farscape.wdsection.com/index.php
Frell Sci Fi, just on principle.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 01:12:33 -0400
From: KLZ3 <KZIMMERMAN3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
> All "slashers" have delusions (thoughts, unjustified beliefs) of victimization?
>
Personally, I blame it on Nancy Drew. How many times did that
girl get thunked on the head, anyway? Poisoned, kidnapped,
threatened with grevious bodily harm, while that jerk Ned was off
waving pennants with the boys at school. Do we *really* believe
that there wasn't anything going on in the back seat of those
roadsters with her two girlfriends?
::::: running :::::
~notadmittingtothisone
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 22:21:10 -0700
From: Pat Lawson <plawson@webleyweb.com>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
Nina wrote:
>Pat--
> > The levels of "you said, I said" quoting are getting pretty deep. Let's
> > step back a little.
>
>Let's not, because that's not all that's getting deep here.
Ok, here's the part relevant to our exchange.
In response to a query from Liser, I said that though I'm not a slash-fan I
saw sexual overtones in the Chivalry nose-painting scene and between two
same-sex characters in a novel.
Nina responded;
>Just proves my point, though--those characters LEAST likely to HAVE
>homoerotic urges draw out slashers in droves, just to beat up the
>character (& those fond of the character) a bit. Duncan MacLeod, John
>Galt--same principle.
That prompted me to ask;
>... how does seeing sexual overtones in a scene constitute "beating up" on
>Duncan?
Nina responding by talking about fanfic. Nice evasive answer, but not the
subject.
I'll repeat my question.
Nina said;
>Just proves my point, though--those characters LEAST
>likely to HAVE homoerotic urges draw out slashers in droves,
>just to beat up the character (& those fond of the character) a bit.
> Duncan MacLeod, John Galt--same principle.
How does seeing sexual overtones in a scene constitute "beating up" on
Duncan or other characters? How is it beating up on those fond of the
characters? You've made a specific charge in direct response to my
post. Either answer the questions or withdraw the charge.
That's straightforward quotes of our exchange. Nothing else for you to
plow through.
> > (If I'm a slasher do I need a hockey mask & bloody knife?)
>
>I think I missed that story, but I'm sure someone could send you the link.
Story? What story? The reference was to so-called slasher movie. No, I
don't watch them but the ads are unavoidable.
Pat
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 01:28:02 -0400
From: virginia foster <vfoster@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
At 01:12 AM 09/29/02 -0400, you wrote:
> > All "slashers" have delusions (thoughts, unjustified beliefs) of
> victimization?
> >
>
>Personally, I blame it on Nancy Drew. How many times did that
>girl get thunked on the head, anyway? Poisoned, kidnapped,
>threatened with grevious bodily harm, while that jerk Ned was off
>waving pennants with the boys at school. Do we *really* believe
>that there wasn't anything going on in the back seat of those
>roadsters with her two girlfriends?
>
>::::: running :::::
>
>~notadmittingtothisone
BWAHAHAHA!!!!!
And just to keep this related to Highlander... Personally, I don't
read Duncan and Methos slash. Methos would have better taste than
to do anything with Duncan in the first place.
<efg>
virginia
(:::giggling madly and running frantically:::)
(what? Just trying to inject a little humor)
vfoster@mindspring.com *@* http://www.mindspring.com/~vfoster/va.html
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Fandom related items on Ebay: http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/vfoster/
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
One Ring to rule them all. One Ring to find them.
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 14:38:45 +0100
From: Jette Goldie <jette@blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
Nina says:
> Jen--
> >Homosexual love DOES NOT EQUAL rape, any more then heterosexual love
> >does. Nor are all homosexual relationships initiated via rape.
>
> Certainly not, & I didn't say anything like that. But, in HL slash, DM &
> the others usually aren't men who are happy or content w/ their homosexual
> relationships. Even if there's no actual violent sex/rape in the story,
> someone's confused, guilty, remorseful, ashamed, uncertain, etc. about the
> sex.
Just how many slash stories did you read for research,
Nina? 1? 10? 100? 1,000? Enough that you can say
that in "most" of them X happens??
Jette
(aka Vinyaduriel)
"Work for Peace and remain fiercely loving" - Jim Byrnes
jette@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
http://bosslady.tripod.com/fanfic.html
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 14:58:20 +0100
From: beccaelizabeth <r.day@netcom.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
jjswbt@EARTHLINK.NET wrote:
>
> beccaelizabeth wrote:
> > My definition just includes same sex.
>> Buffy did its own slash.
>
> It did? So...Tara/Willow =slash? Whoa!
yup. not by all definitions but by mine yes.
It took a pre existing canon character and changed her. that
change didnt mean that her whole love life to date didnt count, it just
meant she was exploring new options. it did the angsty issues a
bit, had her be happy in f/f relationship for a while, then trashed it
for story reasons. happy people do not make a story. the reason you
get angsty slash is because they are writing a story and want it to have
a bit of a plot.
> Sometimes? Only "sometimes" what occurs is hot sex?
fanfic can be gen too. theoretically. really.
> I can see, I guess, the challenge of taking two recurring characters
> who don't have scenes together and seeing what would happen if they
>*did* have to interact. But ... why is the assumption always that the
> "what" is sex? (Other than the fact that sex is
>what slash is all about)
well no other than reason- if you dont want to slash then you write gen
and it not part of this bit of the conversation. much fanfic isnt
slash.
I personally do not (usually, except for fun) suggest that the things I
see as story seeds in an ep or show are put there deliberately, or
basically real. I do take them and make stories. so I write fanfic,
mostly slash. but the thing I like most about Highlander fic (or other
fandom that grabs me) is always exploring the possibilities of that
universe. taking a story seed and growing it into a whole story.
thinking and talking about the shows is much more fun than just sitting
watching them, and for me writing fanfic is an extension of that. any
little throwaway comment or moment that looks dodgy if you take it out
of context can be growed into a story. so can the big themes and
obvious character themes, but it more likely that lot will be done on
screen. until show get cancelled and then it all up to fans if we want
to see that story.
> >and people write slash for the full range of reasons anyone writes
> >fiction- to be creative, to see what happens next, to interact with
> >their readers. slash just lends itself especially well to exploring
> >certain themes.
>
> I guess I need to read more slash <eg> . I'll grant you the
>creativity..since the writer is creating all new characters
>with only "old" names to ID them to fans.
not all characters, not all authors, not all the time.
done well you get a plausible continuation of the character with a new
aspect to their life.
done badly you get bad stories. surprise. there are even some stories
where the 'author' has literally just changed the names on a template
story or a story nicked from another author. dont see the point there.
but very bad fiction happens outside of fandom too.
>Exploring certain themes...OK..what themes?
all the biggies- love, loss, personal fulfilment and social
responsibilities, everything people tell stories about since always.
> The recurring themes I see are that
>1) under sufficient torture, anyone can be made to enjoy being buggered
>or 2) for the right guy, any man will allow himself to be
>buggered. I tend to see both alternatives as false.
put like that I would agree. 1) I would always agree is false. Torture
no fun. bdsm not about torture per se. is not my cup of tea but a lot
of people seem to find it something worth writing about. often in badly
written ways, but that why I only read recommends. (2) saying 'any man'
makes if false because you cant make 'any' statements and them be true.
Even like 'any man needs oxygen to live' on account of it being about
fictional people. But a lot of people find that with the right person
things they hadnt previously considered become attractive. sexuality as
a spectrum, not an either/or. authors like to explore that idea by
using familiar characters and taking them on a journey. It can be just
about the sex, but it can be kinda like making sure you use familiar
words or phrases, a way of connecting with the reader. Any story has to
make you care about the characters and situations to make any impact.
borrowing characters means the reader already cares, and already
understands the background (shared canon), so you can skip a lot of the
groundwork and get on with the story you want to tell in an easily
understood framework. shared symbols, shared language.
> And sometimes is all about the sex <EFG>
well yes. sometimes.
some people seem to have a problem with that though.
dont understand why.
> My only problem with the idea that a lot of research
>makes a fanfic (any fanfic) more realistic, is the
>fact that knowing all about a culture from books
>doesn't tell you what it would have been like for any
>given person (character) to have been alive at that moment.
all true, but the best evidence we've got short of finding a 5000 year
old man and asking him.
research the place, take the character, mix and see what goes boom.
everyone got a different view. half the fun.
MacWestie wrote:
>
> beccaelizabeth--
>>another kind of invitation to fic is any glaring lack of relationship.
>>characters that are both on a show but rarely share screen time. Its
>>the same appeal as with crossover fic- put them together and see what
>>happens. sometimes what your minds eye sees is hot sex.
> Maybe YOUR mind.
was using 'you' because using 'one' is rare stuffy use of language these
days, yes?
not saying specific you who is reading, just general you as in possible
people
(have noticed one reason arguing happens is people take 'you' to mean
you personal, which isnt always intended. talking about topic am I not
people)
>What I'd probably see is the guys talking trash about
>female anatomy, completely blowing off all the boring things they
>promised significant others they'd do that day, eating massive amounts
>of Pringles (& leaving the lid half off the crumby remains), & farting.
did not specify guy but yeah, that kind of story also exists
> I suspect that people who like to explore violence in a sexual context
>may have a problem more serious than a slash dependency.
might, might not. *fiction*. means it safe
>>if no matter how much you hurt someone they will heal up
>>perfect, you would get Immortals who just think that hurting other
>>Immortals is a no harm no foul thing.
>>why wouldnt that attitude carry over to sex?
>
>Because the sex thing is way creepier. Just like rape is far different &
>far worse that slapping someone.
agreed, but a lot of Immortals are waaaay creepy. I wasnt meaning to
say specific Immortal would, just that an Immortal could have that
attitude plausibly. not nice, but plausible.
> Slashers interacting w/ their readers... You really aren't helping.
huh? *blank expression*
>> my impression is people dont like being flamed for what they do.
>
>Then maybe they should quit doing it. Or get used to people finding it
>bizarre.
or not get flamed. flames are not an appropriate response to most
things.
by flame I do not mean discussion or even argument but personal
comments, attacks, people quoting the bible at you and saying you
going to burn in hell.
flames. happens. often.
>Well, my impression is that it's all supposed to be kept quiet.
becca not thinking so or would be being quiet. lack of quiet here.
some of the objections people have are to fanfic, some to slash
(with varying definitions of slash), some to bdsm type fic and some
to characters plain being nasty to each other. fanfic includes all
the others, but slash is not necessarily nasty. seperate issues really.
>But, in HL slash, DM &
> the others usually aren't men who are happy or content w/ their
>homosexual relationships. Even if there's no actual violent sex/rape
> in the story, someone's confused, guilty, remorseful, ashamed,
>uncertain, etc. about the
> sex. And, never in a single HETERO relationship on HL:TS did we see DM,
> Methos or Richie ANY of that re: their myriad sexual relationships
> w/ women (& only women).
Richie, Haunted.
guilt, remorse, shame, uncertainty. and a uniquely HL twist with the
whole was it him or the quickening in him thing.
(just got my first HL box set and finally have seen season 5. anyone
want to talk about the episodes?)(that actually happened. still
successfully avoiding the one that didnt)
>So, in that sense, slash lessens the
>characters in a mean-spirited way.
okay, seperate issues again.
sexual violence in fiction, sexual violence done by favourite
characters, and angst.
angst is the easiest to explain- DM in particular is a very angsty guy.
you write an entire story with DM Not getting all broody and you've
probably taken him out of character.
In a broader sense, you are writing fiction. you can write happy fluffy
stories where everyone is nice and happy and secure in their sexuality
and then it does, basically, tend to end up being all about sex. you do
get stories which have actual plots and a happy slash relationship. if
the plot is going to be the relationship developing, as is often the
case in slash, then you either make it happy hot and sweaty, or happy
and sweet, or all varieties of not quite happy but very dramatic.
dont seem to me to be about diminishing the characters, just basic story
craft.
sexual violence is something that gets explored more in fic than on
screen due to the whole ratings thing (meaning age ratings
certificates, but also people watching it ratings).
I mean if you want to write NC-17 fanfic you just put that at the
top of the page, but to do that on screen is a whole big thing and
not so many people will want to watch and basically most shows stay
clear of it. so part of the purpose of fiction is to explore issues
that you cannot explore RL, or to show things in fanfic
that they never will on screen. so you gets the many of stories with
much nastiness.
characters being involved in sexual violence tends to annoy most people
who actually like the character the way they see them. fair enough,
dont read it. someone did see that in the character, or wanted to get a
reaction or base a story around that character doing that, so they
write. some of them do even do it on purpose to be mean to the
characters. not so much fun. but they are only characters so you can
do what you like with them.
(which loops back to the not your characters bit I know)
beccaelizabeth
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/4212
My halo's still in the shop 'cause it got dented from the time I tried
to use it as a chakram.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 14:16:14 -0400
From: KLZ3 <KZIMMERMAN3@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
> Enough that you can say
> that in "most" of them X happens??
>
Early on in my HL obsession phase, I subbed to HLFIC-L (is that
the spelling?), and along with regular f*nf*c, read a fair amount
of the slash that came across. It was new, it had the excitement
of breaking taboos, and sometimes it was danged funny.
Then, we hit CaH and Rev, and the slash, as well as ADULT hetero,
turned violent. Extremely so. The majority of erotic stuff
coming across HLFIC involved oppression, rape and torture, or at
least depicted someone dominating another person sexually. It
seemed like just about any violent fantasies that anyone had got
put on e-mail and sent. I was reading email at work, and after a
little while of that, I unsubbed - no way could I have stuff like
that coming across a company server - and haven't read slash or
much ::: thinking hard ::: - nope - I don't think I've read any
ADULT f*nf*c either. The last piece of f*nf*c I read was a
HLUniverse/Stargate crossover. (Jack O'Neill, G**z*r Emeritus,
got his butt drop-kicked off a Gate platform by an Immie.
Female. Red-haired. Scottish. Need I say more? I loved it.
<g> :::: hopefully polishing Jack O'Neill Honorary Rocker ::::)
In any case, there probably were some good stories coming across
in those days, but the skill of the serious writers was
overwhelmed by the volume of violent, often pointless and
poorly-written stories.
I was only sort of kidding about Nancy Drew. In my
pre-adolescent days, I read a lot of Nancy Drew - borrowed from
friends, checked out of the school library (they had copies
written in the 1920's! With pictures! Cloche hats, flapper
dresses, roadsters, and swooning!), and a few precious copies of
my own. Combined with other things that were going on at the
time, my imagination, though not my actions, thank <insert name
of deity here>, developed a violent tone. Was it a safety
valve? Perhaps, though it bothered me. The extreme violence of
the ADULT and slash f*nf*c bothered me in sort of the same way.
It represented how violent the imagination can get. I know why
mine did all those years ago :::: clacking dentures ::::; if it's
the same reason for other people, it's terrifying to me.
The other piece of f*nf*c I keep going back to occasionally, btw,
is Sandra MacDonald's third in the Methos trilogy called "The
Victories We Claim". It's a fairly short story, and she nailed
the situation beautifully. It may be the best I've ever read,
even if it didn't drop-kick Jack O'Neill off a Gate platform <g>.
ZK
kzimmerman3@cox.net
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 09:36:15 -1000
From: MacWestie <mac.westie@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Well & truly a slash thing now
Jette--
> Just how many slash stories did you read for research,
> Nina? 1? 10? 100? 1,000?
Again, I wouldn't call it research. Though, I was just reading about some
scientists researching what body parts spiny lobsters use to make sounds to
scare off predators after shedding their hard shells, so clearly there's no
limit to the moronic stuff people will research.
How about "enough stories"? How about--"until I simply couldn't stomach
another one"?
ZK--
>>>Then, we hit CaH and Rev, and the slash, as well as ADULT hetero,
turned violent. Extremely so. The majority of erotic stuff
coming across HLFIC involved oppression, rape and torture, or at
least depicted someone dominating another person sexually. It
seemed like just about any violent fantasies that anyone had got
put on e-mail and sent.>>>
I think I was on about the same timing. I recall rummaging around on
Carmel's website... &, after being totally charmed by some of her humorous
work, feeling physically ill at what she had Duncan & the Horsemen doing to
each other. If making an impression is the goal of some of that
stuff--success; if having someone finish the story is desired, however--not
in my case.
beccaelizabeth is doubtless better-read in slash than I am, & she recently
wrote this--
>>>Torture
no fun. bdsm not about torture per se. is not my cup of tea but a lot
of people seem to find it something worth writing about.>>>
"a lot of people" So, I think my generalization is probably correct.
Nina
mac.westie@verizon.net
Save Farscape http://farscape.wdsection.com/index.php
Frell Sci Fi, just on principle.
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End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 28 Sep 2002 to 29 Sep 2002 - Special issue (#2002-160)
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