HIGHLA-L Digest - 23 Mar 2001 to 24 Mar 2001 (#2001-106)
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Sat, 24 Mar 2001 22:00:02 -0500
There are 6 messages totalling 409 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Raven comments from a new viewer (3)
2. Excellent New Interview of PW
3. Highlander fan central (2)
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Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 22:27:09 -0500
From: jjswbt@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Raven comments from a new viewer
I wrote:
>>As for Nick saving Amanda...you have to put it in the context of
>>seeing the episodes in order for the first time. In only the third
>> episode ("Bloodlines") Nick not only goes after the Immortal Morgan..
>>but kills him. Then in the next episode ("Immunity") Nick shoots an
>>Immortal (Collier) who is about to kill Amanda. [etc... snip]
Marina said:
>Aha! I've only seen the first few Toronto eps. Saw mostly the Paris
>eps first, in which he didn't help her much at all. "Bloodlines"
>was on last night but I didn't manage to watch it as my cousin was
>over and I was helping her with her Nelson Mandela assignment. :)
>Maybe I'll have time to watch the tape today. (We get the Euro
>version, BTW.)
There ya go...seeing things out of order! By the time the action shifted to Paris, many of us had already formed our opinion of where this was all headed. Nick did less outright saving of Amanda in Paris..but the "damage" had already been done.
>>Ah.. some of us hated TNG because it was a pale boring repeat of
>>ST:TOS and loved DS9 immediately because it *was* different.
>So what do you think about Voyager, Wendy? Seven years and I still
>think it sucks like Electrolux. :)
There are some elements of Voyager that I have enjoyed over the years. Most..not. The basic plot should have been fine...lost in space is always fun. But....The Delta Quadrant ended up (after a very short time) as being, basically, just like the Alpha Quadrant. Voyager outgunned everything in sight (even the Borg eventually) and so it was just a weekly soap opera with boring characters. And..frankly..I hated Janeway. And I would have hated Janeway had it been Kevin instead of Katherine. What a sanctimonious self-righteous hide bound prig. 7 years on Voyager with her must have seemed like 700. <eg> I thought they should have explored what 150 people trapped in a small space actually had to do to survive...instead..there was always enough food, always enough material for new parts..always energy for everything. People should have gone stir crazy...crew members should have ended up hating each other..there should have been rampant headboard rattling to kill the endless hours bet!
!
ween planets. Someone should have shot Janeway for detouring all over creation to "explore" when everyone else just wanted to go *home*. "Farscape" does a *much* better job of showing what it would be like to be lost in uncharted territory..
>>Part of my dislike for Raven was that they tried to make her into
>>Duncan - saving people, caring about right and wrong, walking into
>>fights. That just wasn't the Amanda people knew from HL:TS.
>I haven't seen much of this "hero" thing. Amanda usually tried to do
>be good, even if she would steal stuff at the same time.
I meant "hero" in the sense that she actively placed herself in danger for people and things that were not strictly related to *her* well being. From everything we knew of Amanda before..and everything Lucy says in Raven... Amanda's answer to "the call of duty" ( be it answering an Immortal challenge or helping her fellow man) has been to buy a plane ticket to Fiji. Suddenly she is willing to stay in one place..get mixed up in numerous scams and operations with little financial reward and lots of personal risk. The *only* way it makes sense is if she is madly in love with Nick ..which I saw *no* evidence of at all. Nick is pretty obviously smitten by her early on. Amanda? At first it seems like pure "obligation" for having gotten Claudia killed. Then...what? The kiss in "A Matter of Time" seemed to be heading toward some deeper relationship (acted upon or not) but nothing ever came of it. In fact they quickly settled into a "pal" relationship that didn't seem realistic to !
!
me (except when one knows Nick is pre-Immortal).
>But (confession
>time) I spend more time watching Nick than her. That's probably a bad
>thing to admit. On another list people were discussing how female fans
>tend to be misogynistic. I'm not sure I agree, but I can say that I
>like the show for the two of them, even if it was originally supposed
>to be the Amanda show. I prefer the Amanda and Nick show. Nick is much
>easier to empathise with. We know where he's coming from. I don't
>think too many of us in today's modern world have any idea where
>Amanda is coming from.
Hmm...of the two characters I certainly liked Nick more than Amanda (and not just because he was cute<eg>) And I agree that Nick is easier to empathize with..the mortal that falls down the rabbit hole. But..I don't see where being from the modern world or not makes Amanda hard to understand. Do you mean that because she is so old and was raised to believe different things, we can't empathize with her today? I don't empathize with her because I don't see her character as "realistic". She never strikes me as 1200 years old.Or perhaps I should say..she strikes me as someone who has been doing the same thing for 1200 years because they ,apparently, haven't brains or initiative enough to try anything different. Nick was frequently grumpy - but then he was suddenly saddled with a meddlesome Immortal who wouldn't even sleep with him.
>>Of course..Nick wasn't *suppose* to be Immortal...that happened when
>>the the Series got cancelled. PJ had been adamant that he wouldn't
>>take the part if he was just another Immortal..he wanted to be mortal.
>
>Oooh, I didn't know that!
See..this list is still good for something <g>
>It's too late for me. I always knew he turned out Immortal. I wish
>the show could have continued. I would have liked to have seen how
>he coped with being Immortal and hating it.
I think he would have done very well ..once he had time to digest it. He had the killing part down already <g> and he seemed smart enough to learn how to live for centuries rather than just survive for centuries. And who is to say he would have hated it after a while? He was angry at Amanda for making a choice that wasn't hers to make and they might never have been friends..but Nick looked like a survivor to me. I figured that someday he would walk into Joe's (everyone walks into Joe's sooner or later) and Joe would have introduced him to Duncan)( They would have spend a night drinking whiskey and commiserating about Amanda.)(Next morning they would have parted ways as friends and both been better for the catharsis.)
>>Once he becomes Immortal...then her relationship with Nick, seen in
>>retrospect, becomes one of obligation- she knew what he was and felt
>>she had to stick around to be there when he died.
>I don't know... I don't know if Amanda would stick around out of
>obligation. I mean, where's Michelle? Wasn't Amanda supposed to
>be her teacher? Or did she palm her off on somebody else?
Perhaps it was different ..finding a pre-Immortal on her own versus Duncan palming a difficult one off on her unasked? Or...given what we saw of Michelle...maybe she left on her own?
>If so,
>why couldn't she just palm Nick off on somebody?
Because I think she did feel obligated to watch over him..she found him..he was in a dangerous line of work..she had already interfered in his life..and perhaps because she found him attractive (he fit her tall, dark and broody profile).
>I like to think,
>in my romantic heart (yeah, don't laugh) that Amanda really
>loved Nick, but was scared to make any moves on him precisely
>because of their one big difference.
I just don't see it. I see nothing in Amanda's behavior around Nick (except the changeover to Paris episodes) that seems at all romantic. I see friendship..playful banter with a man she knows wants her but for whom she doesn't feel anything special. And..if she knew he was pre-Immortal ..that one big difference wasn't really all that big. You only had to be around Nick a little while to see that his chances of dying of old age were pretty small. So...what did she have to lose by making a move..if she felt like it? For that matter..even if he was purely mortal..what did she have to lose? Eventually he would die...and...so? I just don't think she was that interested in him as a person..as a lover. I think he was a "project".
>>Not to mention..she and Nick never rattled the headboards. Not even one.
>>Phooey!
>I agree with that assessment. A show needs some decent headboard
>rattling. :)
I suppose they were all counting on a second season. Fools!
Wendy(Rattle the headboards in the *first* season.)(Gives us a reason to keep watching.)(Ditch the UST altogether.)(UST is for network TV, syndies are suppose to sizzle.)
Fairy Killer
jjswbt@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~jjswbt/index.html
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Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 01:06:23 -1000
From: methos <methos@pixi.com>
Subject: Excellent New Interview of PW
Abbie Bernstein had a wonderful lonnnggg phone interview with
Peter and the first of the 3-part total is up. The other 2 parts
will be up at the IF Online Magazine site in the coming 2 Fridays.
Go here:
http://www.ifmagazine.com/common/article.asp?articleID=1061
There's more revealed about PW's medical studies and experiences
than he's ever spoken of, his need for the sensitivity and support
of the acting community (which doesn't exist, really, in the medical)
is spoken of with candour, and his thoughts on Methos & Helm are
quite enlightening and insightful.
TC
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Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 10:05:34 -0500
From: Karla Julian <julkm@home.com>
Subject: Highlander fan central
Can someone post the url to the Highlander fan central site? I seem to
have deleted it from my bookmarks.
Thanks,
Karla
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Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 12:06:07 EST
From: Dawn Lehman <USTADAWN@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Highlander fan central
Here's the addy for Highlander Fan Central:
http://www.highlanderfancentral.org/
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Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 21:26:46 +0200
From: Marina Bailey <tmar@fast.co.za>
Subject: Re: Raven comments from a new viewer
Nina wrote:
>Really? I've always thought this list was pretty well chock-full of
>opinionated people more likely to take a contrary view for the fun of it
>than to fall into step. Not that that's a bad thing, of course.
Oh, I think it's an exceedingly good thing. Actually, what I meant
was that by reading about the show, I would have had some opinions
about it, whether agreeing or disagreeing with people. But by not
reading anything, I didn't have any opinions about it really, pro
or con, and that's a good thing too.
>90% of the time it sucks. I keep reminding myself this is the
>last season & I really should watch it, but....
Thank goodness it's the last season. They've bored us to death for
seven years! HL never bored me once in all six years. Made me angry
enough to spit, made me cry, made my laugh, you name it. But it
never bored me.
>She loves DM way more than he loves her, which I think IS sort of the
>issue re: Nick.
I've never seen that. On what do you base that? I think they love
each other in that friendly way they have, but they'd kill each
other if they spent more than a few weeks together.
>But one problem I had w/ Raven was that the Amanda we got to know
>pretty well in 18 HL:TS eps wouldn't have even noticed Nick Wolfe. (She
>also wouldn't have tied herself to the mortal Lucy.)
I don't know so much. I was watching "Methuselah's Gift" tonight
(more to see the ROG, I admit - I had just seen him all glowy-eyed
and vicious giving SG-1 a hard time) and she really doesn't seem
all that different. Maybe I should watch one where she has brown
hair? :)
>I blame Nick for not being interesting on his own. He went around w/ this
>huge chip on his shoulder, dourly judgmental & controlling, constantly
>bitching at Amanda, right through the end when he complained about being
>alive. He had all the charm of a rotting fish. And bad hair in most eps.
Okay, now you've gone too far! You've dissed the hair! And just when
I was thinking I kinda liked his hair. <g> Nick may be all you say,
but I see other things. What I really think it is, is I have this
overwhelming urge to identify with and 'protect' pre-immies and new
Immortals. And swim against the tide. :) But I like Nick. He has
principles and he isn't scared of Immortals the way a lot of us
would be.
>But I'm glad you are enjoying Raven. I'm certainly enjoying Wendy's
>heroic efforts to bring us the Euros.
Oh, yes. It's very nice of her. Now I suppose she will want to maim
me for saying that. :)
>they may as well have set the show in a nunnery, w/ Amanda having
>retreated to HG & donned the veil to avoid some nasty Immie w/ a
>grudge. Nick could have been the disillusioned priest & scowled
>about that. They could have teamed up to sneak out in civvies &
>have madcap capers while helping people....
*Snerk*
- Marina.
\\ "You've heard it said that living well is ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// the best revenge? Au contraire - living || R I C H I E >> \\
\\ forever is the best revenge." - LaCroix ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//=====Marina Bailey=======tmar@fast.co.za=====|| \\
\\============Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie=============//
"I'm sick of Napoleon XIV, I'm sick of Blue, I'm sick of Tentacle
Boy, and guess what? I'm sick of you!" - John to Aeryn, Farscape
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 21:26:48 +0200
From: Marina Bailey <tmar@fast.co.za>
Subject: Re: Raven comments from a new viewer
Wendy wrote:
>There ya go...seeing things out of order! By the time the action
>shifted to Paris, many of us had already formed our opinion of
>where this was all headed. Nick did less outright saving of Amanda
>in Paris..but the "damage" had already been done.
You definitely bring up a valid point there, Wendy. I think that,
without question, the point at which one starts watching a show
will influence one's view of the show and the characters, even if
one later does see the other episodes. With Raven, I knew going in
that Nick would be Immortal. So that has to influence how I view it.
With HL:TS I did not know Richie would be, and that influenced how
I viewed all his interactions. With "Forever Knight" I started
watching in the second season and as a consequence I am a confirmed
Dark Knightie who thinks sweet "Defective Knight" should just be
happy to be a vamp and stop whining. I started watching "Due South"
from the beginning and so I love the real Ray Vecchio. Many people
who started watching in the third season hate him and like the
fake Ray (Ray Kowalski). And so on...
>There are some elements of Voyager that I have enjoyed over the years.
>Most..not. The basic plot should have been fine...lost in space is
>always fun. But....The Delta Quadrant ended up (after a very short time)
>as being, basically, just like the Alpha Quadrant.
Yup. That's a common criticism of Voyager. I don't think they had
one new script idea in seven years.
>I thought they should have explored what 150 people trapped in a
>small space actually had to do to survive...instead..there was always
>enough food, always enough material for new parts..always energy for
>everything. People should have gone stir crazy...crew members should
>have ended up hating each other..there should have been rampant headboard
>rattling to kill the endless hours between planets.
And Starfleet protocol always proved to be 'superior' in the end.
At least Kirk knew when to throw out the book. (Actually, Kirk is
my second-favourite captain - he comes after Sisko.)
>"Farscape" does a *much* better job of showing what it would be
>like to be lost in uncharted territory..
Oh, yeah. A lot of the time "Farscape" is a bottle show, and yet
they manage to keep one's attention. Voyager's bottle shows put
me to sleep on a regular basis.
>I meant "hero" in the sense that she actively placed herself in danger
>for people and things that were not strictly related to *her* well
>being. From everything we knew of Amanda before..and everything Lucy
>says in Raven... Amanda's answer to "the call of duty" ( be it
>answering an Immortal challenge or helping her fellow man) has been to
>buy a plane ticket to Fiji.
She didn't run away when Methos needed her help. She helped Duncan
out before. ??
>Suddenly she is willing to stay in one place..get mixed up in
>numerous scams and operations with little financial reward and
>lots of personal risk. The *only* way it makes sense is if she
>is madly in love with Nick ..which I saw *no* evidence of at all.
It does come across that she likes him, cares about what happens
to him.
>In fact they quickly settled into a "pal" relationship that didn't
>seem realistic to me (except when one knows Nick is pre-Immortal).
Maybe so. Remember I *did* know, so there is no way I can help
being influenced by that knowledge.
>Hmm...of the two characters I certainly liked Nick more than Amanda
>(and not just because he was cute<eg>) And I agree that Nick is easier
>to empathize with..the mortal that falls down the rabbit hole.
Exactly.
>But..I don't see where being from the modern world or not makes
>Amanda hard to understand. Do you mean that because she is so old
>and was raised to believe different things, we can't empathize with
>her today?
We won't ever know what it's like to live in an era when people
could be bought and sold as property. We can't know what it was
like to be living in an era of a plague with all the attendant
"bring out your dead" kind of stuff. We have science, hospitals.
We know how things work. We can't know what it was like for Amanda
to be a woman, illiterate and starving, then to wake up Immortal.
>She never strikes me as 1200 years old.Or perhaps I should say..she
>strikes me as someone who has been doing the same thing for 1200 years
>because they ,apparently, haven't brains or initiative enough to try
>anything different.
Duncan has been doing the same thing for 400 years. Protecting people.
Living up to his "clain chieftain's son" obligations. What's different?
>Nick was frequently grumpy - but then he was suddenly saddled with a
>meddlesome Immortal who wouldn't even sleep with him.
Why do you think that was, from the point of view of TPTB? Did they
think having a heroine who engaged in headboard rattling would be
thought of as a slut and no one would watch?
>See..this list is still good for something <g>
Hehe. I'm still here aren't I? Geezer to the end. :)
>I think he would have done very well ..once he had time to digest it.
>He had the killing part down already <g> and he seemed smart enough to
>learn how to live for centuries rather than just survive for centuries.
>And who is to say he would have hated it after a while?
Actually, I agree. I think that once he came to terms with it he
would have been fine. That's the part I wanted to see, though. The
coming to terms with it part.
>I figured that someday he would walk into Joe's (everyone walks into Joe's
>sooner or later)
Of course!! I love that.
>and Joe would have introduced him to Duncan)( They would have spend
>a night drinking whiskey and commiserating about Amanda.)(Next morning
>they would have parted ways as friends and both been better for the
>catharsis.)
I'm sure someone somewhere has written something like that. If only
I could find it.
>I just don't see it. I see nothing in Amanda's behavior around Nick
>(except the changeover to Paris episodes) that seems at all romantic.
Yeah, darn. Actually, I saw the changeover eps after they aired in
the States (our postal service was still on 2 weeks for airmail
instead of 3 months like it is now) and all I remember thinking
about during the eps where Nick was brooding opposite Notre Dame is,
"Hey, where's the barge?!!" <g>
>I suppose they were all counting on a second season. Fools!
They must have realised early on that it wasn't working out,
surely?
>(Rattle the headboards in the *first* season.)(Gives us a reason to
>keep watching.)(Ditch the UST altogether.)(UST is for network TV,
>syndies are suppose to sizzle.)
Viva that idea! :)
- Marina.
\\ "You've heard it said that living well is ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// the best revenge? Au contraire - living || R I C H I E >> \\
\\ forever is the best revenge." - LaCroix ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//=====Marina Bailey=======tmar@fast.co.za=====|| \\
\\============Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie=============//
"I'm sick of Napoleon XIV, I'm sick of Blue, I'm sick of Tentacle
Boy, and guess what? I'm sick of you!" - John to Aeryn, Farscape
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End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 23 Mar 2001 to 24 Mar 2001 (#2001-106)
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