HIGHLA-L Digest - 21 Jul 2001 to 22 Jul 2001 (#2001-214)
Automatic digest processor (LISTSERV@LISTS.PSU.EDU)
Sun, 22 Jul 2001 22:00:01 -0400
There are 10 messages totalling 549 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. fanfic (2)
2. French Highlander
3. bootleg tapes & more (was--ATTN: All Fan Fic writers) (4)
4. Inspired stories (Was: bootleg tapes & more (was--ATTN: All Fan Fic
writers)
5. Inspired stories (Was: bootleg tapes & more (was--ATTN: All
Fan Fic writers)
6. Inspired stories (Was: bootleg tapes & more (was--ATTN: All Fan
Fic writers)
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Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 21:15:42 -0500
From: ndancer <ndancer@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: fanfic
Nina:
> I think the only real difference between fanfic & my hypothetical is that
> one infringes on someone else's rights & the other infringes on yours--&
you
> just care about yours.
>
> Now, are you going to continue to bluster about my abrasive posting style,
> or actually answer me & address the merits? Because that says a lot more
> about you than it does about me.
Question: Why do you frelling care so much? It's not your fictional
universe to defend, as far as I know. If those who do own the rights don't
care to take any action, why do you feel compelled to lecture everyone else
on legality and, heaven forfend, morality? Or are you arguing that you are
somehow affected by the fact that some folks write fanfic? Please do tell.
Nancy
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 19:31:40 -0700
From: Kenneth Culpepper <scottmicah@yahoo.com>
Subject: French Highlander
This is a question for all of you French Highlander
fans. I have been trying to learn French recently in
preparation for doctroal studies and ahve found it to
be very useful to pratice by watching shows with which
I am familiar in Francais. Do any of you have shows
you have taped off television in French that you might
be able to copy for me or do you have any information
where Highlander shows could be purchased in French.
Thanks.
Scott Culpepper
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 11:57:43 +0100
From: Jette Goldie <jette@blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject: Re: bootleg tapes & more (was--ATTN: All Fan Fic writers)
Carmel to Nina:
>I jay walk...I cross against red lights...
Now come on, Carmel - you know those aren't even illegal
in most places. Occasionally stupid, yes, but usually not
even harmful.
>
> So, who cares if it is illegal. I'll keep writing fanfic until I decide
> that the cost outweighs the benefit, just as I do with every other aspect
of
> my life. I'll speed down street A until I decide that there really *is* a
> high risk now that I'll get a speeding ticket. Then I'll speed down Street
> B...I won't drink and drive because that would endanger other life and the
> cost certainly outweighs the benefit....for the most part I seriously do
try
> to live my life by the motto of "Treat others in the way that you like to
be
> treated" and within that framework I am a moral relativist/situational
> ethicist...I write fanfic...I'm going to hell and to gaol? Ah well - if
so
> then think of all that writing time I'd have behind bars...
Well, OK, but I'd rather you didn't speed down street A
because you realised that there was a risk to the pedestrians
or other drivers there, and I'd rather you didn't drink and
drive because you realised that it's not safe to yourself or
others to do so. Not because it was *illegal* but because
it *would hurt someone*. A bit like fanfic - so long as it
doesn't hurt anyone, to what extent does the legality matter?
Jette
Glory may be fleeting, but obscurity is forever!
bosslady@scotlandmail.com
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/fanfic.html
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 12:09:16 +0100
From: "John Mosby (B)" <a.j.mosby@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: bootleg tapes & more (was--ATTN: All Fan Fic writers)
> You aren't sure that a personal scrapbook is a whole different issue than
> distributing fanfic on the Internet? Are you sure that black is different
> from an egg? Because in terms of common sense, legality, & just about
> everything I can imagine, someone's personal scrapbook of clippings,
photos,
> poetry or whatever is completely different from infringing on intellectual
> property rights & distributing the result far & wide & in perpetuity via
the
> Internet.
Happy to be involved in a discussion, but if we're doing so, please READ
what I've put, don't skim it. I clearly said that WRITING fanfic for your
personal use isn't that different from having a scrapbook. I clearly said
distributing it was another matter entirely, raising potential legal issues.
> Well, I AM a lawyer, so I can look at applicable statutes, examine case
law,
> & conclude that fanfic is not Fair Use or otherwise allowed by law. Nor
is
> there a trend even hinting at extension in that area.
And yet you are ONE lawyer - certainly not the only one I know within
Highlander fandom and yours certainly isn't the only professional opinion
I've heard. I still say that whatever a lawyer may feel, it would need a
modern case to cast the definitive legal standpoint in stone (hence the
reason we have trials?). AS I said, I think such a case WOULD lead to a
fanfic writer losing, but I don't see a rush to take people to court.
> So, it would be OK for me add my artwork to your Impact articles &
> sell them on EBAY? UNTIL a judge specifically rules THAT'S illegal?
ALREADY clearly specified as illegal with no grey area whatsoever. It says
in the front of the magazine that the magazine may not be reproduced by a
third party and that copyright exists on all work. I still say that the
examples you make would be fine if you want to debate the technicalities of
duplicating tapes, but they don't work that well for writing new material.
> My perception is that you don't want to answer my question, & the most
> likely reason for that is you can't do so in a way you're happy about.
So,
> if you feel a jabbing finger, then maybe it's your conscience.
Well, my perception is that I've now answered it twice and included reasons
on how I came to that decision. I just didn't come to the conclusion that
YOU'D be happy about. If anyone feels I haven't answered Nina's question -
quite fully I think - please post and tell me so...but I'm guessing that
no-one else feels that way.
>...But, what makes you think perception of
> posting style is important to me? I'm much more truth-based than
> perception-based. Besides, if I posted all sunshine & lollipops, people
> would get confused, be afraid, & wonder what I was planning....
If you genuinely enjoy debate and exchanging ideas and opinions then I'd
presume you'd be interested in the way people answer your questions (ie: you
seem to care about this from previous posts). I'm sure my opinion on your
posting style barely registers a blip, but if you dn't like the way people
respond to you , then I'm simply suggesting you ask why they respond as they
do. If the List is a shouting contest, then yelling the 'truth' is
fine....but if YOU think it's more than that, then surely you want people to
talk WITH, not AT.
> Nor is fanfic a new version of anything--it's building on an entire
> fictional universe & character set that someone sweated blood creating &
> spends good effort & money maintaining as an entertainment franchise, in
the
> way _they_ see fit (tattered canon & all). Just like fanfic, my
> hypothetical artwork is inspired by & builds on the actors you interview &
> the characters they discuss in your articles. And, remember--I really
like
> doing it! And everyone does it! And if you don't like it, you don't have
> to look! And Impact doesn't have to know!
I agree that fanfic uses copyrighted characters without permission. But
fanfic clearly IS new material - unless every piece of fanfic is re-writing
existing episodes. I can see your breach of copyright argument which I think
could be easily substanciated if it had to be, but I can't understand this
particular point. If a fanfic story depicts situations beyond that which
we've already seen...of course it's new. But that wouldn't be the argument,
surely?
> > Adding some pages of artwork to it (homo-erotic or not), doesn't alter
the
> > basic fact that you've duplicated my work without permission and that
> would
> > be my air-tight legal argument. My articles are a bad example because
they
> > are factual
>
> That hurts your argument. Factual material probably IS less deserving of
> protection from unauthorized use than creative material--such as the HL
> universe & characters--infringed on by fanfic. At least, that's what my
gut
> says.
Nope. A list of facts cannot be copyrighted. A quote made in a public domain
cannot be copyrighted. The style and form of an article which makes use of
those facts and quotes CAN be copyrighted as a text, though the facts/quotes
remain in the public domain (if received that way - depends on whether
quotes are exclusive or not). Lifting that text without permission is a
crime. As a lawyer, I thought your gut would be aware of that difference.
> I think the only real difference between fanfic & my hypothetical is that
> one infringes on someone else's rights & the other infringes on yours--&
you
> just care about yours.
I refer my learned colleague to the above (and previous) information which
clearly states the exact opposite! Briefly: you duplicate and then
distribute a work without permission, you commit a crime. That's not the
same thing as writing new material inspired by previously copyrighted work.
That's a different argument and well worthy of discussion - one well covered
in the last few weeks.
> Now, are you going to continue to bluster about my abrasive posting style,
> or actually answer me & address the merits? Because that says a lot more
> about you than it does about me.
Yes. It does.
John
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 17:38:44 -0400
From: Janeen Grohsmeyer <darkpanther@erols.com>
Subject: Inspired stories (Was: bootleg tapes & more (was--ATTN: All Fan Fic
writers)
John wrote:
>I agree that fanfic uses copyrighted characters without permission. But
>fanfic clearly IS new material - unless every piece of fanfic is re-writing
>existing episodes.
Even rewriting an existing episode can bring something new. We've read
novelizations (both official and unofficial) of movies and TV shows which
contain more information than the dramatized versions do.
We've seen it in published books, too. The book "Ahab's Wife" uses the
characters from Melville's "Moby Dick" and retells the events of the story
from Una's point of view, while also adding new characters, new situations,
and new insights. Since, however, Melville's copyright has run out a while
ago, there was no legal dispute.
But there was a dispute about "The Wind Done Gone." The author did not have
permission to use the copyrighted characters of Rhett Butler and Scarlett
O'Hara, yet the book was legally ruled a parody of "Gone With the Wind" and
is now available in bookstores. I'm not sure if the author intended it to be
a parody, but that's how it went in the courts.
Jo Raumo recently said something about it being absurd to consider fanfic
parody. Is it? Or should we maybe take another look?
Janeen
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 23:11:03 +0100
From: "John Mosby (B)" <a.j.mosby@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Inspired stories (Was: bootleg tapes & more (was--ATTN: All
Fan Fic writers)
For me, parody would be defined as a humorous work which lampooned or
satirised the original. One dictionary agrees, saying: "a piece of writing
or music that deliberately copies another work in a comic or satirical way"
Too often the description is applied to some unauthorised work when it
clearly doesn't fit that remit at all. It's too often a useful get-out
clause used to avoid the charge of copyright infringement and huge expense.
I haven't read The Wind Done Gone, but from those I've heard from who have,
it is NOT really a pardoy, just the same story told from the perspective of
the black slaves. I guess the law saw it another way.
Again...not anti-amateur fanfic per se, but I think - in most cases - the
'parody' defense would be picked apart in seconds if and when someone has
time on their hands and decides to go to court. But given the TWDG ruling,
who knows? All I can say is that if I was getting my own original fiction
professionally published, I'd like to think someone couldn't just take my
creations and make money from my hard work.
An alternative version of the original which did not do this would simply be
----- Original Message -----
From: "Janeen Grohsmeyer" <darkpanther@erols.com>
To: <HIGHLA-L@LISTS.PSU.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2001 10:38 PM
Subject: [HL] Inspired stories (Was: bootleg tapes & more (was--ATTN: All
Fan Fic writers)
> John wrote:
>
> >I agree that fanfic uses copyrighted characters without permission. But
> >fanfic clearly IS new material - unless every piece of fanfic is
re-writing
> >existing episodes.
>
> Even rewriting an existing episode can bring something new. We've read
> novelizations (both official and unofficial) of movies and TV shows which
> contain more information than the dramatized versions do.
>
> We've seen it in published books, too. The book "Ahab's Wife" uses the
> characters from Melville's "Moby Dick" and retells the events of the story
> from Una's point of view, while also adding new characters, new
situations,
> and new insights. Since, however, Melville's copyright has run out a
while
> ago, there was no legal dispute.
>
> But there was a dispute about "The Wind Done Gone." The author did not
have
> permission to use the copyrighted characters of Rhett Butler and Scarlett
> O'Hara, yet the book was legally ruled a parody of "Gone With the Wind"
and
> is now available in bookstores. I'm not sure if the author intended it to
be
> a parody, but that's how it went in the courts.
>
> Jo Raumo recently said something about it being absurd to consider fanfic
> parody. Is it? Or should we maybe take another look?
>
> Janeen
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 15:42:12 -1000
From: Geiger <geiger@maui.net>
Subject: Re: bootleg tapes & more (was--ATTN: All Fan Fic writers)
John--
> Happy to be involved in a discussion, but if we're doing so, please READ
> what I've put, don't skim it. I clearly said that WRITING fanfic for your
> personal use isn't that different from having a scrapbook. I clearly said
> distributing it was another matter entirely, raising potential legal
issues.
No, you weren't clear at all. You quoted me saying this--
>>>> Yes, & they include DISTRIBUTING fanfic on the Internet, which takes it
completely out of the personal scrapbook category you evoked above.>>>
And you immediately responded w/ this--
>>Not sure it does.
I was specifically talking about distribution on the net, & you STILL stuck
to the scrapbook comparison.
> I still say that whatever a lawyer may feel, it would need a
> modern case to cast the definitive legal standpoint in stone (hence the
> reason we have trials?). AS I said, I think such a case WOULD lead to a
> fanfic writer losing, but I don't see a rush to take people to court.
Well, there are lots of reasons for that, aren't there? Fanfic writers try
to keep TPTB from knowing what's going on (except to the extent this goal
interferes w/ them getting to strew their work across the Internet), a
lawsuit would cost money & could harm the franchise in terms of publicity
(the David/Goliath thing, or if a slash writer is sued, of course, the term
"homophobic" will be used), etc. None of that has anything to do w/ the
legal merits of the case, though. Really, your admission that fanfic
writers would lose any case is at odds w/ your insistence that a case is
necessary.
> Nope. A list of facts cannot be copyrighted. A quote made in a public
domain
> cannot be copyrighted. The style and form of an article which makes use of
> those facts and quotes CAN be copyrighted as a text, though the
facts/quotes
> remain in the public domain (if received that way - depends on whether
> quotes are exclusive or not). Lifting that text without permission is a
> crime. As a lawyer, I thought your gut would be aware of that difference.
Relax, I didn't say the factual nature of your articles made them less
legally protected. Me & my gut just think that creative work is even _more_
deserving of such protection.
> you duplicate and then
> distribute a work without permission, you commit a crime. That's not the
> same thing as writing new material inspired by previously copyrighted
work.
When the "new work" is soundly based in a unique fictional universe like
HL's (w/ Quickenings, buzzes, beheadings & the like), & populated w/ the HL
characters we're familiar w/ from the official products, then there's very
little "new" at all. Try stripping away everything the fanfic writer
"borrowed," & 99% of the time what you've got left is very little--& nothing
HL fans would be interested in reading.
>>>It says
in the front of the magazine that the magazine may not be reproduced by a
third party and that copyright exists on all work.>>>
Yes, your articles are protected from use by others, & I'm sure you take
comfort in that. Of course, DPP, for instance, sticks similar proprietary
language all over everything it produces. It's too bad they aren't thereby
protected from their own fans.
Nina
geiger@maui.net
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 15:43:43 -1000
From: Geiger <geiger@maui.net>
Subject: Re: fanfic
Nancy--
> Question: Why do you frelling care so much? It's not your fictional
> universe to defend, as far as I know. If those who do own the rights
don't
> care to take any action, why do you feel compelled to lecture everyone
else
> on legality and, heaven forfend, morality?
This is a discussion about fanfic--the good, the bad & the ugly of it. You
can (were you so inclined) defend fanfic here. I can do the opposite.
Otherwise, when fanfic came up, the result would be something like--
"Ooh--I love fanfic! It's such fun. Especially slash--soooooo naughty!
But, we can't let TPTB "officially" know what's going on, so shush!!!!!!"
Nina
geiger@maui.net
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 15:49:46 -1000
From: Geiger <geiger@maui.net>
Subject: Re: bootleg tapes & more (was--ATTN: All Fan Fic writers)
Carmel blames it all on the big bad lawyers--
> I understand now Nina why you have taken the twisting of people's words to
> new heights, and see why scoring points is so important to you - far more
> important than *truth*. I think that you are having yourself on in the
> above quote. I don't perceive you as interested in truth at all - simply
in
> being incredibly rude, insensitive and thoroughly unpleasant.
This rather ugly epiphany of yours is because you realized I'm a lawyer? I
didn't realize that was a secret, but OK. Sure, lawyers are stereotyped as
villains & everyone hates them (until they need help from one), but I'd have
hoped a supposed writer such as yourself would be a bit less close-minded &
a bit more imaginative. Sensible, even. For all you know, I've spent
decades doing pro bono work for abused women & recently got a judgeship in
Family Court where I try to help abused kids. Or, maybe I'm a prosecuting
attorney, specializing in hate crimes (& doing fund-raising for no-kill
animal centers on the side). Or, maybe I waged holy war on abuses by the
Internal Revenue Service, until being diagnosed w/ a rare cancer, & now run
Internet & local cancer support groups. Why don't you pick which one of
those very real lawyers you think I am & throw your stones?
Stereotypes are so unpleasant. I _could_ go on about the stereotype of
obsessed female fans traipsing the world over after the objects of their
desires. Or, for that matter, the ones about people living in Australia.
But, what would be the point?
And, by the way, _your_ post is one of the most vitriolic I've seen in a
long while.
> In terms of the fanfic argument, my own view is that most of us just don't
> care. SNIP
> So, who cares if it is illegal.
Glad you could tear yourself away from personal attack & get to the
discussion. And, yes, I realize you & many others don't care. I do care.
That's the point.
> for the most part I seriously do try
> to live my life by the motto of "Treat others in the way that you like to
be
> treated"
Then, I guess it's OK for others to take YOUR creative efforts & use them
for their own purposes, w/o permission, just like you do w/ DPP's property?
That IS how you treat others. So, for instance, everything on your website
is up for grabs?
> I would add, "....we're all hypocrites at least half of
> the time....".
Interesting admission. And, you do seem intent on demonstrating it.
Nina
geiger@maui.net
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 15:56:40 -1000
From: Geiger <geiger@maui.net>
Subject: Re: Inspired stories (Was: bootleg tapes & more (was--ATTN: All Fan
Fic writers)
Janeen--
> But there was a dispute about "The Wind Done Gone." The author did not
have
> permission to use the copyrighted characters of Rhett Butler and Scarlett
> O'Hara, yet the book was legally ruled a parody of "Gone With the Wind"
and
> is now available in bookstores. I'm not sure if the author intended it to
be
> a parody, but that's how it went in the courts.
The excerpts I have read do seem to fit w/in a reasonable definition of
"parody."
> Jo Raumo recently said something about it being absurd to consider fanfic
> parody. Is it? Or should we maybe take another look?
Because it's an easy out? Or, do you really think most fanfic is parody,
intended or not by the writer? I do not see fanfic that way at all, but....
Nina
geiger@maui.net
------------------------------
End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 21 Jul 2001 to 22 Jul 2001 (#2001-214)
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