HIGHLA-L Digest - 10 Jul 2001 - Special issue (#2001-188)
Automatic digest processor (LISTSERV@LISTS.PSU.EDU)
Tue, 10 Jul 2001 13:26:08 -0400
There are 13 messages totalling 823 lines in this issue.
Topics in this special issue:
1. further OT..was O/T: List mommy's e-mail address? (3)
2. ATTN: All Fan Fic writers (8)
3. further OT..was
4. ADMIN: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers (Part 1)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 12:21:13 +0200
From: Marina Bailey <fdd-tmar@netactive.co.za>
Subject: Re: further OT..was O/T: List mommy's e-mail address?
mouse wrote:
>When did lists become run by mommy and daddy? Whatever happened to ListAdmin
>or Administrator? I am not picking on Tarryn. This has become widespread on
>almost every list I am on and I would like to know.... why?
I'm not sure how it got started, but many lists like to think of
themselves as "families", and the person in charge is thought of
as being the Listmom (or dad). I suppose, like actual parents,
they are expected to stop the listmembers (listsibs) from
fighting, kick off people for posting lies (like that Connor guy,
I've forgotten his name), keep threads from going too far off-
topic... kind like what parents do in real life.
I personally think it's kinda silly. I have lots of friends on
various lists, but I doubt they'd take kindly to being referred to
as my "list siblings". And the term "listmom" seems to me to be
very condescending. I prefer Debbie's term, List Goddessnessness.
:)
- Marina.
\\ "You can spend precious time marching in your ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// perfect lines, but I don't hear that drum; I'm || R I C H I E >> \\
\\ looking for something else. And if you don't ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//like what you see, you don't have to look at me."|| \\
\\==fdd-tmar@netactive.co.za=Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie==//
"Cultural artifacts always come alive and take over the ship." - My
brother, watching Star Trek Voyager.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 12:21:10 +0200
From: Marina Bailey <fdd-tmar@netactive.co.za>
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
Okay, I lied. <g> John just always brings up interesting points.
(Where ARE you, BTW? Because in the States it's only... 4 a.m. and
that's in NY. Who is awake at 4 a.m.?)
>Probably my last word, but no guarantees - it depends if the same points
>keep getting repeated or new threads emerge....
Yeah, we all keep saying that!
>I've lost count of the times I've input info into a search engine to try and
>get official facts and had to go through a ton of fansites first. Again, not
>a complaint - an observation.
Strangely, I've had the opposite happen. I'm trying to find decent
fan sites and I end up on official sites, which aren't any fun!
>I'm guessing Bill
>Panzer doesn't spend hours pouring over the Net. I do think that if a fan
>put up a site called *http://www.BillPanzerisasheepmolester.com he might
>well get to hear about it and might be more inclined to act on it.
*Snerk* Milk came out of my nose!!
>The point
>i'm making is that they are aware of the Net and its power. They see no need
>to set a precedent or to spoil fanfic writers fun at the moment. However
>there is some truth to say it would only take one obsessive to do something
>loud, vocal, legalise and press-attracting and the house of cards might
>collapse.
And I'm not disagreeing with you in the least! I'm really just
fighting with Nina because it's fun. :)
>Some writers
>write because...the alternative is unthinkable.
Exactly. Thank you.
>It most definitely could, though if fanfic writers are responsible it won't
>be for a long while. As long as TPTB CAN ignore fanfic they will be happy to
>do so. They could never enforce a blanket-ban, but the healthy respect that
>exists between fans and TPTB could be strained if someone wants to do
>something naive and stupid like make a fanfic challenge in court.
It would really take a total idiot to do something like that.
Unfortunately, these days fandom is filled with idiots. I mean,
when rubbish like Star Trek Voyager has fans, that's it, really.
>Slash fanfic IS controversial and people's sexuality is still a
>controversial subject for some.
Well, I wish they'd get over themselves.
>Bottom line: I don't get turned on by
>reading/watching two men get it on. I apologise if that apparently makes me
>homophobic (I'll ring my gay friends and inform them). I thought it simply
>made me hetrosexual.
I never said that not liking slash made you homophobic. I said that
pontificating about slash being disgusting, and more immoral than
the rest of fanfic, made someone with that opinion homophobic. I don't
read f/f slash, either. I do not get turned on by the idea of Janeway
and Seven (or Xena and her sidekick, or whatever). I think that makes
me heterosexual, too. But I do like slash with guys in it. Two guys
are better than one and all that. There are dozens of essays, articles
and papers on the Net about that. I won't bother to repeat them here.
>Again, my position. Fanfic isn't wrong, it can be great. But it has no legal
>protection. Usually TPTB don't care and may even silently thank God that
>interest in their franchise is being kept alive. But a fanfic writer must
>know that such 'deniability' doesn't infer anything other than a
>'tolerance', not a legal right. All fanfic writers should be proud of their
>work, but aware that it should not be shouted about too loudly or with too
>much indignation.
I never disagreed with you about that. I never once said that writing
fanfic was a legal right or anything. Any fan writer knows that is not
the case. I was just taking exception to people who decide on behalf
of others what is and isn't acceptable in the fan community.
>I couldn't agree more (though your point would be affected by the fact that
>75% of the entire US probably doesn't know who AP is to begin with).
*Snerk* Never drink milk while reading email. I keep forgetting that
rule. :)
>The
>important thing is, Tom Cruise couldn't agree less and he's proved that if
>he feels anybody is questioning aspects of his sexuality, he's prepared to
>spend time and money to make them eat their words.
And hands up who believed him anyway? (Sorry. That was downright mean.
I know.)
>Fanfic isn't wrong. Slash fanfic isn't wrong. But it all treads a thin line
>and it's worth noting that those who find themselves/aspects of themselves
>depicted in fanfic doing things they might not agree with, are always going
>to be less tolerant than the writer/fan reader
Which is why I stated that fans shouldn't bring it to their attention.
>The pen is mightier than the sword, but the ego is more fragile than the
>keyboard.
Always the case. :)
- Marina.
\\ "You can spend precious time marching in your ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// perfect lines, but I don't hear that drum; I'm || R I C H I E >> \\
\\ looking for something else. And if you don't ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//like what you see, you don't have to look at me."|| \\
\\==fdd-tmar@netactive.co.za=Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie==//
"Cultural artifacts always come alive and take over the ship." - My
brother, watching Star Trek Voyager.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 07:04:05 -0400
From: Lisa Kadlec <lkadlec@Princeton.EDU>
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
I'm really not interested in getting into the whole fanfic discussion (thought
it's been interesting reading). However, I did want to clarify one thing--I can
understand why John responsed the way he did to one of your points, Marina. <g>
Marina Bailey wrote:
John wrote:
> >Bottom line: I don't get turned on by
> >reading/watching two men get it on. I apologise if that apparently makes me
> >homophobic (I'll ring my gay friends and inform them). I thought it simply
> >made me hetrosexual.
Marina says:
> I never said that not liking slash made you homophobic. I said that
> pontificating about slash being disgusting, and more immoral than
> the rest of fanfic, made someone with that opinion homophobic.
Well, actually, what you said was (from previous response to Nina):
Nina:
>That doesn't mean that people
>who dislike slash are homophobic.
You:
Ri-ight.
Me, now: I must admit that this sounds an awful lot like you're saying that
people who don't like slash are homophobic. I do realize that the conversation
from which this exchange came also included discussion about slash fanfic being
singled out, and that other aspects of the whole discussion may have affected
your response, but if your point was as you elaborate above, I don't think that's
clear from the text.
Lisa
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 07:54:02 -0400
From: Sandy Fields <diamonique@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: further OT..was O/T: List mommy's e-mail address?
At 06:21 AM 07/10/01, Marina Bailey wrote:
>I personally think it's kinda silly. I have lots of friends on
>various lists, but I doubt they'd take kindly to being referred to
>as my "list siblings". And the term "listmom" seems to me to be
>very condescending. I prefer Debbie's term, List Goddessnessness.
>:)
Me too. I was once on a list that had a List Mom. She treated everyone
like babies, wouldn't allow any controversial discussion (this was a
LaFemme Nikita list), no discussion about the sexual tension that was very
evident between the two main characters, she spoke to everyone as if they
were 4 years old, and her list eventually blew up (with the help of a
couple of internet geezers <eg>).
I like our ListGoddessnessnessness much better. She runs a list for
adults. I dare say this list is at its best when there is controversial
discussion and good intelligent debate. Debbie only jumps in when it's
absolutely necessary... and then she wields her whip with pure expertise. <g>
-- Sandy
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 08:18:01 EDT
From: Bizarro7@aol.com
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
In a message dated 7/10/01 6:24:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
fdd-tmar@netactive.co.za writes:
>>>I'm guessing Bill
>Panzer doesn't spend hours pouring over the Net. I do think that if a fan
>put up a site called *http://www.BillPanzerisasheepmolester.com he might
>well get to hear about it and might be more inclined to act on it.<<<
<<*Snerk* Milk came out of my nose!!<<
Ah, but a court case could even be made in that instance that Bill Panzer set
a precedent example to the fans by implying that he sanctions
livestock-boinking in HIGHLANDER canon. Otherwise, why goat moment in A
MODERN PROMETHEUS?
>>The point i'm making is that they are aware of the Net and its power. They
see no need to set a precedent or to spoil fanfic writers fun at the moment.
However, there is some truth to say it would only take one obsessive to do
something loud, vocal, legalise and press-attracting and the house of cards
might collapse.<<
>And I'm not disagreeing with you in the least! I'm really just
fighting with Nina because it's fun. :)<
For awhile, but it gets predictable really quickly. Some fight simply to
watch the ripples they make, not the points. I stopped opening her posts many
months back and find this list ever so much better.
>>>It most definitely could, though if fanfic writers are responsible it won't
>be for a long while. As long as TPTB CAN ignore fanfic they will be happy to
>do so. They could never enforce a blanket-ban, but the healthy respect that
>exists between fans and TPTB could be strained if someone wants to do
>something naive and stupid like make a fanfic challenge in court.<<<
>>It would really take a total idiot to do something like that.<<
It might be too late. Unless taken on a case-by-case basis for individual
fanfic, authors or situations, the barn door has been open too long. Even
before netfic began, the simple fact that production companies like Paramount
allowed fanzines and fan fiction to exist in their current form for so many
years might be enough to win a legal claim that they had given the phenomenon
their 'tacit approval' to exist, by precedent. The individual fan might lose
a case because a production company can afford bigger lawyers and longer
litigation, but I'm betting it wouldn't do much to stop fanfic in any form,
even so.
>>>Unfortunately, these days fandom is filled with idiots. I mean, when
rubbish like Star Trek Voyager has fans, that's it, really. Slash fanfic IS
controversial and people's sexuality is still a controversial subject for
some.<<<
>Well, I wish they'd get over themselves.<
I really wonder about these masses of people who feel compelled to worry
excessively about what consenting adults do, sexually. It isn't contageous,
there are no recruitment posters up, its existence does not effect the
heterosexual individual's own sexual integrity (or lack thereof) in any
sense, and if you don't like it in fanfic, don't read it. It amazes me how
some feel a kind of moral obligation to win brownie points in heaven or
something by making loud declarations against it whenever the subject is so
much as *mentioned*. Okay...you're not gay. We know. Very good, and here's a
biscuit. Guess what? Most fans who *write* slash aren't gay, either.
>>>Bottom line: I don't get turned on by reading/watching two men get it on.
I apologise if that apparently makes me homophobic (I'll ring my gay friends
and inform them). I thought it simply made me hetrosexual.<<<
>>I never said that not liking slash made you homophobic. I said that
pontificating about slash being disgusting, and more immoral than the rest of
fanfic, made someone with that opinion homophobic. I don't read f/f slash,
either. I do not get turned on by the idea of Janeway and Seven (or Xena and
her sidekick, or whatever). I think that makes me heterosexual, too. But I do
like slash with guys in it. Two guys
are better than one and all that. There are dozens of essays, articles and
papers on the Net about that. I won't bother to repeat them here.<<
This goes back to a lot of the double standard between what's acceptable and
what isn't, in terms of male and female sexuality. Men may be frowned upon
for enjoying the idea of a 'sister act' between two women, but nobody accuses
them of being "gay" for watching it. The accuser would be stared at
strangely. But if someone, male or female, reads a slash fanfic, that somehow
brings their sexual identity into question...? Again, some people/religious
organizations spend entirely too much time worrying about the sexual identity
and activities of complete strangers. We've got to shake this ancient baggage.
<< >I've lost count of the times I've input info into a search engine to try
and
>get official facts and had to go through a ton of fansites first. Again, not
>a complaint - an observation.
>>Strangely, I've had the opposite happen. I'm trying to find decent
fan sites and I end up on official sites, which aren't any fun!>>
Hee hee! I'm still searching for all those multifold fanfic sites about AP/PW
slash which someone claimed where everywhere on the net. I didn't expect a
clue or hint, but you would think something so ubiquitous, as claimed, would
be easy to find if you were actually out *looking* for it.
Leah CWPack
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 08:23:10 EDT
From: RED57@aol.com
Subject: Re: further OT..was
My fellow Listanistas,
In a message dated 01-07-10 07:54:45 EDT, you write:
> I like our ListGoddessnessnessness much better. She runs a list for
> adults. I dare say this list is at its best when there is controversial
> discussion and good intelligent debate. Debbie only jumps in when it's
> absolutely necessary... and then she wields her whip with pure expertise.
<g>
>
Her Goddessnessnessness sets a high standard for other list owners and forum
leaders to follow. I'm also extremely glad that this is a list for adults, by
adults, on topics of interest to adults (plenty of fiivolity, but very little
banality). Would we still be here if in the early days the list demographic
matched the apparent target audience of the movies?
Ginny...no kidding!
RED57@aol.com
Cluephone for kooks and trolls: {S Ring}
"Attention! You are gave 1 minutes Eastern Standard Time
for total abandonment of vicinity! Counting! 9, twelve, 2, several..."
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:37:07 +0100
From: John Mosby <A.J.Mosby@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: further OT..was O/T: List mommy's e-mail address?
Anyone starts calling me 'list
brother-in-law-of-my-cousin-on-my-mother's-side' and I'm going to take legal
action.
;)
John
----- Original Message -----
From: Sandy Fields <diamonique@EARTHLINK.NET>
To: <HIGHLA-L@LISTS.PSU.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2001 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: [HL] further OT..was O/T: List mommy's e-mail address?
> At 06:21 AM 07/10/01, Marina Bailey wrote:
>
> >I personally think it's kinda silly. I have lots of friends on
> >various lists, but I doubt they'd take kindly to being referred to
> >as my "list siblings". And the term "listmom" seems to me to be
> >very condescending. I prefer Debbie's term, List Goddessnessness.
> >:)
>
> Me too. I was once on a list that had a List Mom. She treated everyone
> like babies, wouldn't allow any controversial discussion (this was a
> LaFemme Nikita list), no discussion about the sexual tension that was very
> evident between the two main characters, she spoke to everyone as if they
> were 4 years old, and her list eventually blew up (with the help of a
> couple of internet geezers <eg>).
>
> I like our ListGoddessnessnessness much better. She runs a list for
> adults. I dare say this list is at its best when there is controversial
> discussion and good intelligent debate. Debbie only jumps in when it's
> absolutely necessary... and then she wields her whip with pure expertise.
<g>
>
> -- Sandy
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 10:50:46 -0400
From: jjswbt@earthlink.net
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
I believe this qualifies as "better late than never"
Marina wrote:
>Ah, but like most Internet porn, someone looking for fanfic is going
>to have to know how to look for it and where to find it. What PTB is
>going to spend hours tracking down fanfic? Sounds like a waste of
>their time to me.
Were I a PTB, I would have a hard time deciding which fanfic to track down and crush first - the often excretible gen fanfic that abounds..or the oft times pornographic slash fanfic. So much fanfic..so few PTB willing to act <eg>
>>So, you'd rather everyone just looked away so fanfic writers can indulge
>>themselves to the max?
>
>Actually, yes. They've been looking the other way for 35 years, they
>can just keep right on.
And I am sure most will. The Internet has made the issue more pressing, I think, for those who do care something about copyright violations. In the pre-Internet days, there might have been thousands of scribblers sitting in their darkened kitchens writing alternative endings to The Man From U.N.C.L.E. ...but no one every saw the stuff except the writers closest buddies. If a copyright is violated but no one reads it..does it really happen? Today, however, those same scribblers can post a story and dozens or hundreds or thousands of people can read it. The violation is flagrant and open. Eventually I would think some PTB will decide that enough is enough. The proliferation of TV-based book series might also spur some PTB to act. Or not.
Personally, I tend to be ambivalent toward the legalities of fanfic. I would never argue that it is legal..I know perfectly well that no fanfic writer has any "right" to be using characters or universes created by other people. OTOH, most fanfic is so awful that no one would ever mistake it for professional work. What little fanfic there is that is well written is so well hidden amid the mass of dreck that I doubt TPTB need worry too much. OTOH, well-written or trash, it is all one big copyright violation and as a once-upon-a-time lawyer, I ought to be appalled.
>No, but as I pointed out, when modern myths are owned by corporations
>instead of "the people" as a whole, then corporations must not be
>surprised when "the people" start adding to them the way they would
>have long ago.
Is "Highlander" being owned by a corporation any different than "A Midsummer's Night Dream" being owned by Shakespeare? Do you think no one went home after a performance and dreamed up a story where Puck and Oberon had wild fairy sex? Why is corporate ownership of "Due South" different that Dickens' ownership of "Oliver Twist"? Surely someone wondered what happened to Oliver after he grew up ..surely someone wondered what else had happened to him while he was living with Fagan..surely someone thought the Artful Dodger was a better character than Oliver and deserved his own story. How is that different that someone thinking Richie deserves 10,000 pages of fanfic where he, and not Duncan, is the hero?
Frankly, the idea that TV shows constitute "modern myths" strikes me as pretty laughable (or as a clever justification for "stealing" another man's work). TV shows are the "modern equivalent" to *plays* - and plays have been around as long as the "old" myths have. I have the feeling that if someone had produced a play called "Midea" the year after Euripides produced "Medea"... he would have been pissed.
>>So, you realize how unhappy slash makes the actors, producers, etc., yet
>you think it's perfectly OK for you/other fanfic writers to write & distribute
>>it? Odd.
>
>No, ALL fanfic should be kept away from TPTB. Singling out slash for
>particular derision just makes me think people are homophobic.
Really..after all these years ...you don't still believe that everyone who finds slash offensive hates it because it involves homosexual activity, do you?
>And, frankly, any actor who would be more shocked at slash than, say,
>a het story, is not an actor I would want to watch anyway. I don't
>think most actors today would be upset by slash.
I'm curious..if you had discovered that ...say...Paul Gross... was upset at all the sash fanfic that existed about Fraser and Ray..would you have stopped watching "Due South"? If Stan Kirsch had let it be known in 1995 that he hated the fanfic that placed him in sexual relationships with other men..would you have stopped watching Highlander?
I think there are probably lots of actors who would be offended to find that a character they are closely identified with is being "used" in some of the slash being written- they are just too PC to say so. I know there are actors who carefully look at each character they agree to portray - actors who refuse to play parts that are violent or where explicit sex is required - because they don't wish to be associated with such things (often on religious grounds). I think they have a right to be upset to find that "their" character has been usurped into a sash universe. They may have no legal recourse..but having no legal recourse doesn't necessarily mean the offending action is "right".
Marina in another post:
>I never said that not liking slash made you homophobic.
Well....you came pretty close <g>
> I said that
>pontificating about slash being disgusting, and more immoral than
>the rest of fanfic, made someone with that opinion homophobic.
I haven't seen too much pontification during this discussion that slash is disgusting or more immoral. I have seen the argument that if general fanfic makes a tiny blip on the radar for TPTB, slash fanfic might make a slightly bigger blip..because it varies so extremely from the original work in ways that TPTB might not like. The HL PTB., for example, might not mind a series of fanfics that keeps the legend of crafty, mysterious Methos alive while they try to get a new series off the ground. They might be less happy with fanfic that creates and then perpetuates the legend of the Methos who spends an inordinate amount of time thrusting, grunting, slipping and sliding through the various bodily fluids of other men.
DragonLady wrote:
>>>And you can't claim *FAIR USE* of a character, plot,
>idea, universe, etc., you can cite specific parts of a
>work with proper attribution (and there are limits on
>how much in the fair use doctrine), but that's it. <<
Jo answers:
>I'm sure the Mitchell Trusts, owners of the copyright
>on 'Gone with the Wind' would love to hear this if it
>were true, given that they just lost an injunction to
>stop the publication of a book that did just this. A
>parody, that uses someone else's character and plot
>and idea, is fully protected under Fair Use.
Sure. ..parody is protected. However, unless you want to call all fanfic "parody"...that isn't germane to the argument at hand. (Mind you... I'm not opposed to calling all fanfic "parody" )(Even the stuff I wrote.)(Most fanfic would be easier to read if one assumed it was parody from the outset.)(That way the unrecognizable characterizations and outlandish plots would seem ...right.)
Wendy(Is it time for the slash debate again?)(I thought we always held that one in August.)
Fairy Killer
jjswbt@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~jjswbt/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 10:12:58 -0400
From: Debra Douglass <ddoug@catrio.org>
Subject: ADMIN: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers (Part 1)
Since copyrights are one of the topics in this current discussion, I
would like to remind people that posting entire articles is a definite
no-no and I would appreciate it if you feel the need to quote in the
future from a published piece that you only -quote- and not post
the whole thing.
-Debbie Douglass
(list goddess, -never- list mommy {yuuuucckkk})
On 7/9/2001, on HIGHLA-L@lists.psu.edu, Bizarro7@aol.com wrote:
>>Pay no mind, reeana. Fanfic of *every* flavor has been around for many, many
>>years and will continue to be around despite the opposing tastes of some who
>>feel theirs must be the final word on the subject. I find this especially
>>amusing when they hint of dire consequences for when the mundane public
>>*finds out* about this terrible, awful, invasive, filthy stuff. The truth is
>>almost inevitably anticlimactic when they do. I give you a couple of perfect
>>recent examples, the first from The London Times:
--
.------------------------------------------------------------------.
|Debra Douglass ddoug@catrio.org http://www.catrio.org|
`------------------------------------------------------------------'
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:18:27 +0200
From: Marina Bailey <fdd-tmar@netactive.co.za>
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
Leah wrote:
>Ah, but a court case could even be made in that instance that Bill Panzer set
>a precedent example to the fans by implying that he sanctions
>livestock-boinking in HIGHLANDER canon. Otherwise, why goat moment in A
>MODERN PROMETHEUS?
So shouldn't John's hypothetical website be called www.BillPanzerisagoat
molester.com? <g>
>For awhile, but it gets predictable really quickly. Some fight simply to
>watch the ripples they make, not the points. I stopped opening her posts many
>months back and find this list ever so much better.
I just like it when the list livens up. Terrible, aren't I? I used
to fight with that Connor fan guy even though I knew perfectly well
he wasn't rowing with both oars in the water.
>It might be too late. Unless taken on a case-by-case basis for individual
>fanfic, authors or situations, the barn door has been open too long. Even
>before netfic began, the simple fact that production companies like Paramount
>allowed fanzines and fan fiction to exist in their current form for so many
>years might be enough to win a legal claim that they had given the phenomenon
>their 'tacit approval' to exist, by precedent. The individual fan might lose
>a case because a production company can afford bigger lawyers and longer
>litigation, but I'm betting it wouldn't do much to stop fanfic in any form,
>even so.
Of course it wouldn't. It's like that thing with Napster. People can't
use Napster anymore, so now there's slightly different software which
does the same thing. Fans will find a way.
>I really wonder about these masses of people who feel compelled to worry
>excessively about what consenting adults do, sexually.
Didn't a writer once define puritanism as the fear that someone, somewhere,
may be happy?
>It amazes me how
>some feel a kind of moral obligation to win brownie points in heaven or
>something by making loud declarations against it whenever the subject is so
>much as *mentioned*. Okay...you're not gay. We know. Very good, and here's a
>biscuit. Guess what? Most fans who *write* slash aren't gay, either.
Exactly.
>This goes back to a lot of the double standard between what's acceptable and
>what isn't, in terms of male and female sexuality. Men may be frowned upon
>for enjoying the idea of a 'sister act' between two women, but nobody accuses
>them of being "gay" for watching it. The accuser would be stared at
>strangely.
Which is also, I think, why TPTB could get away with being overt in a
show like Xena, yet try that in a show with guys and everyone gets up
in arms. That's hypocritical, to say the least. (I did enjoy it when
Eric McCormack, gorgeous hunk that he is, kissed that other guy in
Will & Grace. Go, Eric!!)
>Hee hee! I'm still searching for all those multifold fanfic sites about AP/PW
>slash which someone claimed where everywhere on the net. I didn't expect a
>clue or hint, but you would think something so ubiquitous, as claimed, would
>be easy to find if you were actually out *looking* for it.
That's what I've been saying - people claim you can find slash in
seconds on the Net, but you can't.
- Marina.
\\ "You can spend precious time marching in your ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// perfect lines, but I don't hear that drum; I'm || R I C H I E >> \\
\\ looking for something else. And if you don't ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//like what you see, you don't have to look at me."|| \\
\\==fdd-tmar@netactive.co.za=Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie==//
"Cultural artifacts always come alive and take over the ship." - My
brother, watching Star Trek Voyager.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:18:29 +0200
From: Marina Bailey <fdd-tmar@netactive.co.za>
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
Wendy wrote:
>I believe this qualifies as "better late than never"
Wendy! You're here!!
>Were I a PTB, I would have a hard time deciding which fanfic to track down
and >crush first - the often excretible gen fanfic that abounds..or the oft
times >pornographic slash fanfic. So much fanfic..so few PTB willing to
act <eg>
*Snerk* I think that maybe the fact that there is such a lot of
fanfic is a good thing... it's easier to hide in a crowd!
>Eventually I would think some PTB will decide that enough is enough.
>The proliferation of TV-based book series might also spur some PTB to
>act. Or not.
George Lucas tried to get rid of fan sites, didn't he? All it did
was make the fans mad at him. And Master and Apprentice is still up.
Heh.
>Is "Highlander" being owned by a corporation any different than "A
Midsummer's >Night Dream" being owned by Shakespeare? [snip, rearrange]
>Frankly, the idea that TV shows constitute "modern myths" strikes me as
pretty >laughable (or as a clever justification for "stealing" another
man's work). TV >shows are the "modern equivalent" to *plays* - and plays
have been around as long >as the "old" myths have.
I don't think that was the point in the book. I think he likened modern
TV shows to campfire stories in which everyone would participate after
eating large portions of mastodon. <g> I don't think TV shows are the
modern equivalent of plays at all, because they carry on and on (and on,
sometimes far beyond the point where they should have stopped). Plays
are short (usually) and they stop after a couple of hours (or more if
you decided to watch Kenneth Branagh's version of Hamlet). Plus, they
don't wrap things up the way that plays do. I mean, Hamlet dies in the
end. But at the end of Highlander, Duncan is still alive.
>How is that different that someone thinking Richie deserves 10,000 pages
>of fanfic where he, and not Duncan, is the hero?
Now you're getting the idea, Wendy!! <g> (I'm sorry, I had to.)
>Really..after all these years ...you don't still believe that everyone
>who finds slash offensive hates it because it involves homosexual activity,
>do you?
It depends on *why* they find it offensive. If they find it offensive
because it portrays gay relationships, yes. If they think slash is
somehow defaming their favourite actors, yes. A lot of people just
state that it's gross and disgusting, and that's enough for me to
think that they're homophobic. At least give reasons beyond how
disgusting you think it is (not you personally, Wendy). I mean, if
a person states that they hate slash on religious grounds, I'd know
not to even *start* arguing with them, because religious fanatics
never change their minds. But if they just say it's wrong, I want to
know *why*.
>I'm curious..if you had discovered that ...say...Paul Gross... was upset
>at all the slash fanfic that existed about Fraser and Ray..would you have
>stopped watching "Due South"?
Yes. But Paul Gross found it funny, and put it in the third season. Have
I mentioned I hate the third season? And not just because of stupidly
unfunny attempts at slash.
>If Stan Kirsch had let it be known in 1995 that he hated the fanfic
>that placed him in sexual relationships with other men..would you have
>stopped watching Highlander?
No, but then I never wanted to slash *Richie*. (Although I did, once.)
>I think there are probably lots of actors who would be offended to find
>that a character they are closely identified with is being "used" in some
>of the slash being written- they are just too PC to say so.
Good for them (being PC). It's a start, I guess.
>>I never said that not liking slash made you homophobic.
>Well....you came pretty close <g>
Well, sorry about that.
>I have seen the argument that if general fanfic makes a tiny blip on the
>radar for TPTB, slash fanfic might make a slightly bigger blip..because
>it varies so extremely from the original work in ways that TPTB might not
like.
Of course, we slash fans could argue that it doesn't vary that much.
Nose-painting, Lord Byron and spiral Quickenings come to mind.
>The HL PTB., for example, might not mind a series of fanfics that keeps
>the legend of crafty, mysterious Methos alive while they try to get a new
>series off the ground. They might be less happy with fanfic that creates
>and then perpetuates the legend of the Methos who spends an inordinate
>amount of time thrusting, grunting, slipping and sliding through the
various >bodily fluids of other men.
Ah, but I bet the second lot had a larger audience. And Methos *obviously*
would have had more fun in the second lot.
>(Is it time for the slash debate again?)(I thought we always held that
>one in August.)
Hey, don't blame me. I didn't start it. And we're only one month early.
One day I'm not going to join in the slash debate, and then what are
you going to do?? :)
- Marina.
\\ "You can spend precious time marching in your ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// perfect lines, but I don't hear that drum; I'm || R I C H I E >> \\
\\ looking for something else. And if you don't ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//like what you see, you don't have to look at me."|| \\
\\==fdd-tmar@netactive.co.za=Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie==//
"Cultural artifacts always come alive and take over the ship." - My
brother, watching Star Trek Voyager.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:17:38 +0100
From: Jette Goldie <jette@blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
Wendy:
>
> Wendy(Is it time for the slash debate again?)(I thought we always held
that one in August.)
Oh, August will be pretty busy with the pre-con wibbling, mid-con
"exclusives" from those with lap tops, post con reports and
post-mortems ;-)
Jette (and I'll be no-mail for much of it <g>)
Glory may be fleeting, but obscurity is forever!
bosslady@scotlandmail.com
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/fanfic.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 19:21:32 +0200
From: Marina Bailey <fdd-tmar@netactive.co.za>
Subject: Re: ATTN: All Fan Fic writers
I think this is the last post that I'm allowed today.
Here's a summary of the theory of that MIT prof who wrote the
Book (Textual Poachers) on fanfic. It comes from the following
site: http://www.iota.org/Spring98/fan.html
(And no, it's not the entire article.)
Henry Jenkins is a professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology
who is an expert on fan fiction. He says the practice is similar to the
way that folk tales evolved. For hundreds of years, people based their
own stories on popular characters, like Bre'r Rabbit and King Arthur,
each person adding details or making changes as the story is passed along.
Jenkins says it wasn't until the Industrial Revolution that popular
characters were seen as the intellectual property of large corporations.
Just for interest. See, I wasn't making it up. :)
- Marina.
\\ "You can spend precious time marching in your ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
// perfect lines, but I don't hear that drum; I'm || R I C H I E >> \\
\\ looking for something else. And if you don't ||>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> //
//like what you see, you don't have to look at me."|| \\
\\==fdd-tmar@netactive.co.za=Chief Flag Waver and Defender of Richie==//
"Cultural artifacts always come alive and take over the ship." - My
brother, watching Star Trek Voyager.
------------------------------
End of HIGHLA-L Digest - 10 Jul 2001 - Special issue (#2001-188)
****************************************************************